Anti wet sump valve sieze (2015)

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Glen,

You have a nice piece of kit. I just think it's in the wrong place.

I believe Matt used to sell the spring loaded inline valve, too. We all live and learn.
 
Hi,

I purchased an oil cut off valve for my 1974 Norton Commando which has two wires that have to be connected to the ignition switch to preclude starting the engine with the valve in the closed position.

There were no instructions on connecting the red and black wire to the ignition switch. When called, the seller said to connect the wires to the numbers 1 and 2 in the ignition switch.

I did so, but when ignition key is turned clockwise to the first position I still have a spark and the red ignition light is on. When the key is turned anticlockwise to the first position there is no spark or ignition light until the oil valve is open, meaning it works in this position.

I would appreciate any advice in connecting the red and black wires to the correct connections on the back of the ignition switch, which are numbered 1 through 5.

Thanks in advance,

John D.
 
diduljc said:
I purchased an oil cut off valve for my 1974 Norton Commando which has two wires that have to be connected to the ignition switch to preclude starting the engine with the valve in the closed position.

There were no instructions on connecting the red and black wire to the ignition switch. When called, the seller said to connect the wires to the numbers 1 and 2 in the ignition switch.
Click to expand...

I can't see how that would work.
An ON/OFF switch connected as such would bypass the ignition switch when the oil valve is 'ON' but it wouldn't prevent the engine from being started with the valve 'OFF'.

diduljc said:
I did so, but when ignition key is turned clockwise to the first position I still have a spark and the red ignition light is on.
Click to expand...

That's as I'd expect. The red "ignition" light is a charge warning light so it's not part of the actual ignition circuit.


diduljc said:
When the key is turned anticlockwise to the first position there is no spark or ignition light until the oil valve is open, meaning it works in this position.
Click to expand...

That key position is Parking Lights so there should be no sparks at that key position, but as I said, connecting the valve switch between terminals 1 and 2 would bypass the ignition switch when the valve is open.

diduljc said:
I would appreciate any advice in connecting the red and black wires to the correct connections on the back of the ignition switch, which are numbered 1 through 5.
Click to expand...

There's no connection between any of the ignition switch terminals that would, and there are only 4 terminals on the standard ignition switch.
 
I have noticed the Titanic ('73 850) wet sumps quite a bit more than the SS Clone ('75 Mk III 850 engine) when they both sit unused for a while.

At Barber Vintage this year, there was an older gent in the pits selling a Commando and before he got a firm offer, he got busy pulling the Mk III timing cover off and replacing it with an older version (no camchain check port) because he wanted to save it for another Commando he was working on.

Does the Mk III timing cover somehow reduce wet-sumping during storage?
 
Thank you for that info. No wonder Mk III timing covers bring a pretty penny on Fleabay.
 
I have no personal interest in adding an awsv, but a manual valve that cuts ignition in the OFF position would seem pretty foolproof.
 
On the MK3 - simple, when back from your ride, and the bike is in its final position, put into gear turn rear wheel backwards, select neutral and the valve should be on its seat. Not tried this, but a customer who told me about it said it does.
 
JimC said:
There have been reported engine seizures from just such valves. Why some insist on putting an obstruction in the oil pump supply is beyond me.
Click to expand...
I have not seen a single report of a problem with a manual valve AND INTERLOCK setup, lots with many years of use.-worntorn

I guess you two guys are reading different reports. As I said, makes no nevermind to me; the SS Clone's Mk III engine wet sumps very little and I can easily pull the drain plug and clear the sump on the '73 if it sits for a while. Guess someone could invent a quick-drain valve for that. Strain the oil as you dump it back in the tank for zero loss.
 
diduljc said:
Hi,

I purchased an oil cut off valve for my 1974 Norton Commando which has two wires that have to be connected to the ignition switch to preclude starting the engine with the valve in the closed position.

There were no instructions on connecting the red and black wire to the ignition switch. When called, the seller said to connect the wires to the numbers 1 and 2 in the ignition switch.

I did so, but when ignition key is turned clockwise to the first position I still have a spark and the red ignition light is on. When the key is turned anticlockwise to the first position there is no spark or ignition light until the oil valve is open, meaning it works in this position.

I would appreciate any advice in connecting the red and black wires to the correct connections on the back of the ignition switch, which are numbered 1 through 5.

Thanks in advance,

John D.
Click to expand...
Note that your bike may not have the original Lucas 4 position switch. My Emgo replacement switch has a different connection path despite being sold as a replica of the Lucas part.
Anyway, no matter what you have, the best thing to do is pull out your volt meter and/or test lamp and check what wire goes hot when in the " Run without lights" switch position....that is the one you want to pull off, connect to your anti wet sump valve switch. (This was the white wire on my '74 850...check your schematic diagram). Then take the remaining wire from the AWSV and place it where you pulled the first one off the ignition switch. This puts the valve switch in series to the ignition circuit...current can only reach ignition if the valve switch is closed (which should only be happening when the valve is open to oil flow). Test everything to be sure.
I made up my own manual valve (using a 1/2" stainless ball valve in a brass casing from a hardware store) and fitted a normally closed 12v push button switch to the brass valve such that the operating arm pushes the switch button to open circuit when the valve is in closed position.
Works a treat.
 
Valve with a pressure gauge installed provides the redundancy. I have run an anti wet sump valve for about 4 years now to great effect. I run a pressure gauge off the head oil line between the speedo and tacho. It has saved me once before due to my bike consuming inordinate amounts of oil. It is presently in bits as I try and find the cause.
 
L.A.B. said:
I can't see how that would work.
An ON/OFF switch connected as such would bypass the ignition switch when the oil valve is 'ON' but it wouldn't prevent the engine from being started with the valve 'OFF'.



That's as I'd expect. The red "ignition" light is a charge warning light so it's not part of the actual ignition circuit.




That key position is Parking Lights so there should be no sparks at that key position, but as I said, connecting the valve switch between terminals 1 and 2 would bypass the ignition switch when the valve is open.



There's no connection between any of the ignition switch terminals that would, and there are only 4 terminals on the standard ignition switch.
Click to expand...

Hello Member 162,

I appreciate your prompt and detailed reply.

Yes, there are only four connections on the ignition switch; three are double connections and one is single. I can see numbers 1, 2, 4, and 5, but no number 3.

I am disappointed that the oil cutoff valve with the two wires cannot be configured to disable the spark when the valve is in the off position. This creates the possibility that my Norton can be started when the valve is off, starving the engine of oil and causing it to seize. Can you confirm that this is the case?

I am tired of draining the sump every time I start the engine, but hesitate to install the cutoff valve without its ability to produce no spark. I do not trust the spring and ball valve system to prevent wet sumping. Any suggestions?

Thanks again for your detailed reply.

John D.
 
diduljc said:
Yes, there are only four connections on the ignition switch; three are double connections and one is single. I can see numbers 1, 2, 4, and 5, but no number 3.
Click to expand...

Are you sure that "5" isn't a "3"?

Anti wet sump valve sieze (2015)




diduljc said:
I am disappointed that the oil cutoff valve with the two wires cannot be configured to disable the spark when the valve is in the off position.
Click to expand...

Yes, it can, but not according to the instructions you were given by the valve supplier!

See Tornado's previous post for one option as connecting the cut-out switch wires between terminal 2 and the wire that normally connects to it (white) would do it (and also cut out other electrics such as the red warning light, brake light, horn and direction indicators).

An alternative would be to wire the switch into just the ignition circuit (so only the ignition is disabled but not the other electrics).
More information on that can be given if you need it.
 
Last edited:
Tornado said:
Note that your bike may not have the original Lucas 4 position switch. My Emgo replacement switch has a different connection path despite being sold as a replica of the Lucas part.
Anyway, no matter what you have, the best thing to do is pull out your volt meter and/or test lamp and check what wire goes hot when in the " Run without lights" switch position....that is the one you want to pull off, connect to your anti wet sump valve switch. (This was the white wire on my '74 850...check your schematic diagram). Then take the remaining wire from the AWSV and place it where you pulled the first one off the ignition switch. This puts the valve switch in series to the ignition circuit...current can only reach ignition if the valve switch is closed (which should only be happening when the valve is open to oil flow). Test everything to be sure.
I made up my own manual valve (using a 1/2" stainless ball valve in a brass casing from a hardware store) and fitted a normally closed 12v push button switch to the brass valve such that the operating arm pushes the switch button to open circuit when the valve is in closed position.
Works a treat.
Click to expand...
 
Hi Tornado,

You are well north of we are (In Maryland). While we are getting plenty of rain I hope your weather allows at least occasional forays on your Norton.

Thank you so much for the proposed and correct solution to connecting the oil valve wires to the white wire coming off the ignition switch. I also have a 1974 850 Commando, so your white wire suggestion was right on the money.

I just installed and checked everything. With the oil valve off there is no spark until it's turned on, so everything checks out.

I just drained the oil from the sump and poured it back into the reservoir. So hopefully I will only have to do this when changing the oil in the reservoir. I can't wait to take the bike out for a ride tomorrow.

Wish you were close enough so I could buy you a drink.

With much appreciation.

John D.
 
L.A.B. said:
Are you sure that "5" isn't a "3"?

Anti wet sump valve sieze (2015)






Yes, it can, but not according to the instructions you were given by the valve supplier!

See Tornado's previous post for one option as connecting the cut-out switch wires between terminal 2 and the wire that normally connects to it (white) would do it (and also cut out other electrics such as the red warning light, brake light, horn and direction indicators).

An alternative would be to wire the switch into just the ignition circuit (so only the ignition is disabled but not the other electrics).
More information on that can be given if you need it.
Click to expand...
 
LAB Moderator,

Thanks for the picture of the switch and your comments. You are correct; it wouldn't be logical to have a number five but nut a number three; my mistake.

I used Tornado's suggestion to have the cutoff valve wires connected to the white wires. It works like a charm. First, while at idle, there is plenty of oil returning to the reservoir, then I closed the shutoff valve and the engine died immediately. So then, since it was mild today, I opened the valve and took the 850 out for a spin and it ran perfectly. It's a good feeling knowing I don't have to drain the sump between oil changes, increasing the incentive to get it out more often.

Thanks again,
John D.
 
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