Anti wet sump valve

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In the past 3 years, I know of 3 engines fitted with these type of valves - Boooom, The cost each time is eyewatering. One worked for 10 years, but it did fail.
 
Alan L said:
Hi all,
I see Triumph Tridents (not sure about the twins) have always had a non drain valve, I have never heard of one failing in the closed position. I believe they can leak with age and are reseated with a smart blow with a drift on the ball up onto the seat.
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Triton Thrasher said:
On the pressure side of the oil pump. That’s very different from what the OP is planning.
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Again that is what the AMR system employs. All this discussion has reaffirmed my decision to go that route.


Dan1950 said:
Has anyone tested the AMR version with the check valve on the high pressure side of the oil pump?
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Madnorton said:
In the past 3 years, I know of 3 engines fitted with these type of valves - Boooom, The cost each time is eyewatering. One worked for 10 years, but it did fail.
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I'm guessing that you are speaking of spring valves, not manual/interlock valves?
The two valve types are completely different but often get blurred together in these conversations.

Glen
 
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worntorn said:
I'm guessing that you are speaking of spring valves, not manual/interlock valves?
The two valve types are completely different but often get blurred together in these conversations.

Glen
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I would think that any type of spring valve on the suction side would be asking for trouble.
 
I am also squarely in the anti inline anti-sump valve camp. Failure here is not an option. But I hate draining the sump. I did it every time I went riding on my "73 750 and I am older now. I do not crawl around on the floor as well as I once did. I try to ride often enough so the draining the sump is unnecessary but that's not alwasys practical. (It soldi ice out today.) So I was thinking that I might use a transfer pump (Harbor Freight has a hand pump model for $8) to remove the oil from the tank before it has a chance to fill the sump. It would only take a minet and I could do it while standing. I can store the oil in a clean, clear plastic jug next to the bike and just pour it in when I am ready to ride. Since I am the only rider there is no chance of starting it dry. Anyone see any harm in this?
 
Big_Jim59 said:
I am also squarely in the anti inline anti-sump valve camp. Failure here is not an option. But I hate draining the sump. I did it every time I went riding on my "73 750 and I am older now. I do not crawl around on the floor as well as I once did. I try to ride often enough so the draining the sump is unnecessary but that's not alwasys practical. (It soldi ice out today.) So I was thinking that I might use a transfer pump (Harbor Freight has a hand pump model for $8) to remove the oil from the tank before it has a chance to fill the sump. It would only take a minet and I could do it while standing. I can store the oil in a clean, clear plastic jug next to the bike and just pour it in when I am ready to ride. Since I am the only rider there is no chance of starting it dry. Anyone see any harm in this?
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Tape the the bikes ignition key to the oil jug.
 
Big_Jim59 said:
I am also squarely in the anti inline anti-sump valve camp. Failure here is not an option. But I hate draining the sump. I did it every time I went riding on my "73 750 and I am older now. I do not crawl around on the floor as well as I once did. I try to ride often enough so the draining the sump is unnecessary but that's not alwasys practical. (It soldi ice out today.) So I was thinking that I might use a transfer pump (Harbor Freight has a hand pump model for $8) to remove the oil from the tank before it has a chance to fill the sump. It would only take a minet and I could do it while standing. I can store the oil in a clean, clear plastic jug next to the bike and just pour it in when I am ready to ride. Since I am the only rider there is no chance of starting it dry. Anyone see any harm in this?
Click to expand...
So you will not fit a manually operated ball valve with ign interrupt incase of forgetfulness to open valve prior to starting but know you will never forget to replace oil in an empty tank each time?
 
Big_Jim59 said:
I am also squarely in the anti inline anti-sump valve camp. Failure here is not an option. But I hate draining the sump. I did it every time I went riding on my "73 750 and I am older now. I do not crawl around on the floor as well as I once did. I try to ride often enough so the draining the sump is unnecessary but that's not alwasys practical. (It soldi ice out today.) So I was thinking that I might use a transfer pump (Harbor Freight has a hand pump model for $8) to remove the oil from the tank before it has a chance to fill the sump. It would only take a minet and I could do it while standing. I can store the oil in a clean, clear plastic jug next to the bike and just pour it in when I am ready to ride. Since I am the only rider there is no chance of starting it dry. Anyone see any harm in this?
Click to expand...

That's what I do but not often as I try to use the bike fairly regularly, mainly winter when I suck the oil out. When I have drained the oil I have a large sign that is fastened over the clocks saying "No Oil".
 
Nortoniggy said:
That's what I do but not often as I try to use the bike fairly regularly, mainly winter when I suck the oil out. When I have drained the oil I have a large sign that is fastened over the clocks saying "No Oil".
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I like that idea. Kind of a lock out/tag out arrangement. As for forgetting to add oil, you have to know that my bike's parking space is the same. If there is a jug of oil next to it I would know it was empty.
 
Big_Jim59 said:
I like that idea. Kind of a lock out/tag out arrangement. As for forgetting to add oil, you have to know that my bike's parking space is the same. If there is a jug of oil next to it I would know it was empty.
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I put Post-It notes on the clocks as well, key out, zip tied to the clutch cable.... "WTF? ..... ohhhhhhh"
 
Hi all,
Do we know what quantity of oil has to drain into the sump before problems such as seal failure is likely to occur? In other words, what is the volume of the crankcase? How flooded does it have to be before it is an issue?
I guess where I’m going with this is asking whether running less oil in the tank is an option. I suspect the majority of bikes on this forum have quite low oil usage and have their contents checked regularly. I’m not sure if running lesser amounts of oil would contribute to elevated oil temperatures.
I have a confession to make. Before I joined this forum and read about the potential risks of starting the motor with a flooded sump I recognised that after long layups I did have a wet sump issue. I would start my 850 and ensure the rpm didn’t rise above idle while I observed the oil returning to the tank.
I have not had any troubles from this practice but that might be just good luck. If nothing else I bet I had very good cam lubrication on starting .
Alan
 
Alan L said:
Hi all,
Do we know what quantity of oil has to drain into the sump before problems such as seal failure is likely to occur? In other words, what is the volume of the crankcase? How flooded does it have to be before it is an issue?
I guess where I’m going with this is asking whether running less oil in the tank is an option. I suspect the majority of bikes on this forum have quite low oil usage and have their contents checked regularly. I’m not sure if running lesser amounts of oil would contribute to elevated oil temperatures.
I have a confession to make. Before I joined this forum and read about the potential risks of starting the motor with a flooded sump I recognised that after long layups I did have a wet sump issue. I would start my 850 and ensure the rpm didn’t rise above idle while I observed the oil returning to the tank.
I have not had any troubles from this practice but that might be just good luck. If nothing else I bet I had very good cam lubrication on starting .
Alan
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Thats a good point Alan but not good running your bike with lower oil level in the tank, I would never start my Norton if the cranks is full of oil as the chance of blowing the crank seal is high, it doesn't take long for the oil to pump back into the oil tank but the ricks of blowing that crank seal could happen, my round alloy oil tank is only 3 ltr, 2 ltr oil cap. and 1 ltr for air, but I also run a oil cooler without a thermo all year round so lower oil level will not stop wet sumping if your bike wet sumps.
But if you ride regularly and not let the Norton sit for weeks or months then no problem, my breather hose sits in a catch bottle and don't go back to my oil tank, but there is Jim's crank return set up that will return the oil from the crank to the oil tank quickly that a lot of people are using, great idea but no good for my set up.
If my Norton was to sit for awhile it be because I am working on it or doing other mods to it so it be on the lift table as it is now going back to my old Amals and while on the lift table its easy for me to drain the sump if its been sitting before any start up, but my Norton takes months of sitting before the level in the tank goes down and some their bike seems to drain within a week or two, each bike is different.
If the oil drains into the crank it can't go anywhere else unless you have bad gaskets and as I said before keeping the bottom end lubed while sitting is not bad really, just drain the sump before start up, but of course only if been sitting and depends on how bad your Norton wet sumps.

Ashley
Anti wet sump valve
 
I've never have any issue with wet sumping. Never had a blown crank seal and am not sure how that can happen...the crankcase is vented. BUT I know folks have had it occur...I just don't understand how.

The only thing I pay any attention to re the "problem" is if my bike has been sitting for an extended period without running, I check the oil tank. If the oil level is below the feed line, I'll drain the sump, add it back to the tank. From my checking, it takes at least 6 weeks for the oil to drain to that level.

FWIW, before I resurfaced the oil pump IAW the Norton service manual, it would drain to the feed line in a week or less.
 
MexicoMike said:
I've never have any issue with wet sumping. Never had a blown crank seal and am not sure how that can happen...the crankcase is vented. BUT I know folks have had it occur...I just don't understand how.

The only thing I pay any attention to re the "problem" is if my bike has been sitting for an extended period without running, I check the oil tank. If the oil level is below the feed line, I'll drain the sump, add it back to the tank. From my checking, it takes at least 6 weeks for the oil to drain to that level.

FWIW, before I resurfaced the oil pump IAW the Norton service manual, it would drain to the feed line in a week or less.
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The vent will vent air pressure but it's not air pressure that blows the seal. I think it's the hydraulic action of the full sump that pushes out the seals.
Picture a crankcase full of cold oil with a submerged mix master (crank and rods) thrashing around at high speed and shoving waves of oil in all directions. It goes everywhere, even ends up in the silencers on my bikes.
I recall Jim Comstock's story of the startup of his neighbour's fully wet sumped Harley. There were couple of rotations of the electric starter, then a clunk as the crankcases broke apart. A big burp of oil sloshed out on the driveway and the Harley was pushed back in the garage.

Glen
 
Time Warp said:
Then there are the folk (video's even) who seem to think it is fine to start the engine and plumes of smoke is normal. (with no thought to why there is 'smoke getting into the combustion chamber)
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Yes, wet sump starts might be something one can get away with but I can't see it being great for the engine. It's not designed to run like that.

Glen
 
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