Anti wet sump Idea

Metal gears are notorious for letting liquids of ANY description go through them by gravity, even Velocette were not immune from this.

Time Warp said:

Can we back the car up a little.
If the bike is sitting and the connecting rods are at TDC, how is the oil getting to the sump route wise.
Is it via the oil pump feed,return or something else.

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See above .

Time Warp said:

Can we back the car up a little.
If the bike is sitting and the connecting rods are at TDC, how is the oil getting to the sump route wise.
Is it via the oil pump feed,return or something else.

Click to expand...

I assume they also leak through the spindle?
Maybe from the top and bottom plate of the oil pump?
I have seen a BSA A10 pump leak from the top plate
I sealed it with a very light smear of wellseal

Time Warp said:

Can we back the car up a little.
If the bike is sitting and the connecting rods are at TDC, how is the oil getting to the sump route wise.
Is it via the oil pump feed,return or something else.

Click to expand...

Even with the rods at TDC, there is still some head pressure with a full tank of oil .... just eyeballing my Atlas. Keep in mind that the big ends are lower than the small ends by the stroke length, which puts more head pressure there.

Oil seeps past the gears and shaft connecting the pressure side to the scavenge side, and then to the sump via the scavenge port. An O ring placed on that shaft is part of the AMR modification.

I find that rather than draining the oil from the sump after winter storage, it is easier to drain the oil from the oil tank before winter storage.

Slick

Yep, the oil tank/oil level is higher than the engine and since liquids seek their own level, physics dictate that if the bike isn't ridden, all oil that is above the level of the oil feed pipe from the tank will eventually end up in the engine. This is true of any dry sump system where the tank oil level is above the engine. The only thing that can stop it is an on/off valve. Whether that's a good idea is a personal decision.

Full circle to a manual on/off oil valve with an ignition interlink. I've had the Velocette inspired anti-sump valve as sold by RGM
on my bike for 15 trouble free years, but the nay sayers have spooked me into buying the ignition interlink valve and which I
will be installing quite soon.

Yesterday I watched a YouTube My Ty video of an Alton starter install on a Commando.
The owner of the bike had fitted a manual valve with ignition cut out.
He said he had proved it works by "going as far as removing the spark plugs in trying to figure out why the bike wouldn't start and had no spark"
Then " Oh yeah, turn this lever"

What I like about the manual vs auto is, you know it is on because you've turned it on. Also it is full flow, no obstruction from ball and spring. The one I made up is 3/8" Dia. right thru when open.
I believe most are like that.

Glen

I have an AJS 650 CSR to which I have fitted a tap with ignition cutout. It's made by Kingpin Components & is excellent. The bike will not start until it is switched on, which is just as well as my memory is sh1t.

Im thinking to relocate my PEX valve with microswitch added to the oil tank outlet end of hose. Might need a 90 deg elbow added for best hose routing. This will all but eliminate one negative of the setup, seeing it right over the gearbox, though mine is already pretty clean looking as is.

I find that the easiest thing to do is just start up the bike and warm it up while the oil pumps back into the oil tank. Never caused a problem in 35 years. The oil never completely drains my oil tank dry. There is always some oil pressure on start up. I can see a problem if you have your sump vented directly to a catch bottle but your motor should be vented to the oil tank and then the oil tank vented to the rear. I used to vent my 750 from the left case cam vent. Now I do the same but with a reed valve breather on the cam vent with the rotary valve removed.

Why is everyone so concerned about sumping? Are you filling up catch bottles or is it that you just don't like the idea?

If your oil is low in the oil tank because its run into the sump then you can peek into your oil tank on warmup to see if oil is pumping back in.

Lapping the oil pump body and/or parking your bike with the pistons near TDC will slow sumping way way down.

My bike would drop oil level to fully expose tank sieve within 7-10 days. That means no oil to pressure side until scavenging returns enough for it to flow down hose to intake of pump. Plus I blew out the crank seal on primary side when not preemptively draining sump one day.
That was main reasons I went to my valve & interlock solution. Works a treat.

Funny, I had my first Norton back when they were actually making Nortons and I never even HEARD of wetsumping until a few years ago when I got on this website.

Same here, I never knew about wetsumping when I was a young guy. I owned 1 bike at a time and rode a lot then, all four seasons.
I ride even more miles per year now but shut down for winter. I don't find fighting cold and rain to be pleasant these days.
I get enough of that when touring during the other three seasons.
Then there is the road salt damage to consider.

There are 12 running bikes in the shop now, not 1 or 2 like it was back in the day.

12 bikes sitting all winter creates this small problem.
But it's easily dealt with, really not much of a problem at all.

Glen

Tornado said:

My bike would drop oil level to fully expose tank sieve within 7-10 days. That means no oil to pressure side until scavenging returns enough for it to flow down hose to intake of pump. Plus I blew out the crank seal on primary side when not preemptively draining sump one day.
That was main reasons I went to my valve & interlock solution. Works a treat.

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Mine also has an oil filter between the oil tank and the oil pump and that might be what is keeping my tank from completely draining into the sump.

Even with your drained system you're going to have oil in the feed hose and some oil pressure on start up but whether or not you would lose pressure for a couple seconds before oil pumps into the tank is the question.

If half the energy that was spent thinking about, posting about and arguing about anti-wet sump devices was spent on starting bikes often, there wouldn't be a problem!

Just sayin'...

I don't think about it anymore until someone posts about it. It's been dealt with.

I don't mind helping others though.

Glen

rvich said:

If half the energy that was spent thinking about, posting about and arguing about anti-wet sump devices was spent on starting bikes often, there wouldn't be a problem!

Just sayin'...

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That is very true
Just ride every day

Maybe the ‘72-‘73 crankcase breather wasn’t such a bad idea when considering excess oil down there. My combat if sitting for some time blows a lot of oil back to the tank through the breather and the reason I’m not concerned about wet dumping.

Like Baz, I fitted a manual tap in the oil supply line thinking I would never forget to turn it on. One day, after 7 miles, I heard this squeaking and Faaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrk . Turned the valve on and went home with my tail between my legs. I kept riding the bike even did a rally in the South Island, but one day I heard this funny big end tapping. After an engine rebuild with new BE brgs I fitted a micro-switch. That turned to custard after too many rainy rides so I fitted another one and also a bypass wire. Now [ after probs with the second switch ] I unplug that wire before turning the tap off. I don't ride as much as I did and its no fun draining the sump, nor trying to start it when the sump is full of oil. I had never heard of wet sumping either until watching this forum. I do remember years ago when my 750 was only about 4 years old, It would not start. I lived at the top of Port st Mt Vic in those days so I put it in top gear and crash started it down the hill. The smoke that came out the back was amazing. Couldn't see a thing. Even then, the novice me didn't know what had happened.
Now days the only time I leave that valve open is when I am riding long trips like Norton rallies.
Happy riding

Dereck

I had never heard of the term wet sumping either, before coming to this forum.

That said, way back in the sixties, before starting, I checked the oil level in my tank one day, found it a bit low, so added some oil to bring it up to normal level .... no dip stick on an Atlas.

A day or so later, before starting, checked the oil level in the tank, and was startled to find it up to the very neck of the filler cap!

Meditating on the occurrence of this event, I said "Eureka! I have found what future generations will call wet sumping!"

Seriously, I deduced what had happened, and after it became an almost everyday occurrence, put in a manual stopcock in the oil feed line. I got away with this for many years, without an interlock.

Now a days, I have the AMR mod, no manual valve, still have occasional wet sumping, the Comnoz breather, and I drain the oil tank, nearly completely, for winter storage. The little oil I save in the oil tank is my insurance if I should forget to top up the oil before start up.

A big flag on the oil cap, or kick start lever would be beneficial to remind me to top up the oil, but as yet, haven't got a round tuit.

Slick