The Magneto Guys Anti-Wet Sumping Valve

I have a Feked valve on a pre-Commando. It is installed in a nearly vertical position and my oil lines run under the gearbox. The valve is partially hidden from other Norton owners by the kick start. Does what it is supposed to do.

An inline reed valve does not return oil to the oil tank as was already pointed out. On my engine right or wrong, the one off my timing side spits a small amount of froth into the oil tank. The froth tower on my oil tank is plumbed into a line that runs to a vented catch can.

robs ss said:

Reed valve not only returns oil but limits crankcase pressure - way to go!!

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And cost over $300.

It's been 5 months since I taken the Norton out (wife has had a few eye surgeries and health problems) but the oil in the tank has only dropped ever so little from sitting that long, I have the original oil pump has never been rebuilt and no mods or oil line taps fitted since I have owned it from new, I have also put some JB weld around the outside main oil seal to prevent the seal blowing out just to be sure, I also fitted a XS650 reed valve, maybe best cure is to ride the bike regularly.
Not all Nortons are the same some wet sump quicker than others and you can spend a lot of money trying to fix the problem, some Nortons (like my own take a very long lay up before the oil moves to the crank case) if my Norton is going to lay up for some time having a bit of extra oil in the crank is a good thing to keep the cam covered in oil, so easy to drain the oil and put back in the tank before taking it out after a layup, after any long layups you still got to go over the bike before starting it.
My Norton in 49 years of ownership has only wet sump 2x once when I forgot to turn off my fuel tap and my float stuck up and fuel flooded my motor, next day I fired it up and fuel/oil blew out of my breather, I run my breather into a large clear catch bottle and could see it filling up before stopping the motor, if it ran straight back to my oil tank it would have been worst and the second time was when it sat for over 7 months recovering from a bad knee injury.
The idea of putting any tap or device in between my oil tank and motor is not my idea, if my oil tank is low or empty I just drain the oil out of the crank, takes less than 5 minute to do and there are always other things to look over and check while it's draining.
I can't understand why folks have so much troubles to just drain the crank case and put the oil back in the tank if its wet sump, to me it's no big deal for me, or maybe I do have a freak Norton that don't leak oil or wet sump, but then it has always been an everyday rider most of its life.
I be firing the Norton up in the next few days as on the 15th this month we have an only kick start bike run on.

Ashley

Tornado said:

And cost over $300.

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Sound cheap compared tearing down the engine. I have seen more damage from oil shut off valves not being turned on or the buzzer/light/fail safe failing, nothing like an electrical switch sticking or a key switch short to take out an engine.

Tornado said:

And cost over $300.

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That's cheap considering you also get an extra 40hp! Or so I read on the internet...

maaseyracer said:

Sound cheap compared tearing down the engine. I have seen more damage from oil shut off valves not being turned on or the buzzer/light/fail safe failing, nothing like an electrical switch sticking or a key switch short to take out an engine.

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So far in all the years, and I would guess hundreds if not thousands of installs, there has never been an actual report here of engine damage from an oil valve with ignition cut out failing.
Many people have warned about it, but we just haven't seen any factual report with photos of the damage and failed unit.
I have been keenly following this sometimes hot topic on this forum and a couple of other forums for about 20 years now.
There have been several engines damaged by home brew taps that lacked an ignition cut out. There have also been cases were the spring loaded automatic type valves have stuck and destroyed engines. Both of those methods of keeping the sump dry come with a lot of risk, too much risk IMHO.

Just haven't seen any of the Feked, Iron John or Magneto Guys taps or any other of that type actually fail and take out an engine.



Glen

Mart UK said:

All reed valves, or just the sump versions (CNW etc.)?

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The sump is closest to the action so is the most efficient place to put the reed valve, the further away the less efficient. At that point its going to depend on the age of the seal and how badly worn it is as to if it will fail or survive.

worntorn said:

So far in all the years, and I would guess hundreds if not thousands of installs, there has never been an actual report here of engine damage from an oil valve with ignition cut out failing.
Many people have warned about it, but we just haven't seen any factual report with photos of the damage and failed unit.
I have been keenly following this sometimes hot topic on this forum and a couple of other forums for about 20 years now.
There have been several engines damaged by home brew taps that lacked an ignition cut out. There have also been cases were the spring loaded automatic type valves have stuck and destroyed engines. Both of those methods of keeping the sump dry come with a lot of risk, too much risk IMHO.

Just haven't seen any of the Feked, Iron John or Magneto Guys taps or any other of that type actually fail and take out an engine.



Glen

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Brembo brake light switch just got stuck in the on position on my norton, not a big deal to fix, silicone spray and good to go. Not so much if it is your oiling switch.

This is not to say these devices do not work, it is to say I feel these devices are risking an issue greater than the perceived problem.

I do have in my possession an 850 Mk2 that used a petcock on the oil tank, and it was started by the previous owner without turning it on.

Rubber hoses and their connections fail as well, so the reed valve setup also carries risk.

Mart UK said:

All reed valves, or just the sump versions (CNW etc.)? I have the XS650 version in the crankcase breather hose on my 850mk3. Is that sufficient to crank it on the starter without risking the crank seal?

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Same for me Mart . The MK 111 model ( as you are aware ) , has a piston plunger anti- drain back valve cast/machined into the MK 111 timing cover . I fitted the XS650 breather valve and have never had a crank seal break up or blow out using this .
Every Norton is different , some wet sump badly , some a little , some not much at all . My MK 111 seems fine cranking over unless it's quite cold out , in which case I should not ride that day anyways . Kicker has been removed . Also have never lapped an oil pump to tighter tolerances .

Torontonian said:

Same for me Mart . The MK 111 model ( as you are aware ) , has a piston plunger anti- drain back valve cast/machined into the MK 111 timing cover . I fitted the XS650 breather valve and have never had a crank seal break up or blow out using this .
Every Norton is different , some wet sump badly , some a little , some not much at all . My MK 111 seems fine cranking over unless it's quite cold out , in which case I should not ride that day anyways . Kicker has been removed . Also have never lapped an oil pump to tighter tolerances .

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Dude you may have just explained why your motor spins slowly when cold.

A sump full of cold oil is a more likely suspect than the difference between 5w40 and 10w40 etc.

And… your 5w (when cold) oil is now even more likely to wet sump than 10w or 20w.

Got a magneto guys valve on my N15 working with magneto. very neat.

They are great for featherbeds too, Kingpin Components make a replacement oil tank gauze outlet which allows the tap to thread direct to the tank outlet.

Fast Eddie said:

Dude you may have just explained why your motor spins slowly when cold.

A sump full of cold oil is a more likely suspect than the difference between 5w40 and 10w40 etc.

And… your 5w (when cold) oil is now even more likely to wet sump than 10w or 20w.

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Very good points . I'll pop the seat and observe the dipstick oil level . If it's much lower than after the last cold ride ( was at 2/3 , checked then after ) a week ago , then there is a wet sumping concern using this thinner oil . Will report back in 3 days , when it warms up enough to do that . Drifting snow with 40 kms. wind gusts today . Bicycled about in it wearing Balaklava and hoody top . I'm not adverse to fitting this interlock ign. cutoff safety feature valve should need be .

Torontonian said:

Very good points . I'll pop the seat and observe the dipstick oil level . If it's much lower than after the last cold ride ( was at 2/3 , checked then after ) a week ago , then there is a wet sumping concern using this thinner oil . Will report back in 3 days , when it warms up enough to do that . Drifting snow with 40 kms. wind gusts today . Bicycled about in it wearing Balaklava and hoody top . I'm not adverse to fitting this interlock ign. cutoff safety feature valve should need be .

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1 week later . -5 C. to + 6 . Dipstick checks in at 2/3 level using 5W - 50 synthetic . No sumping , so this tells me the MK 111 integral timing cover piston valve is doing it's job of holding the oil in the tank where it belongs . Started right up and went for a ride , before the early darkness set in . I'll keep an eve on this oil tank level again , may not need this product after all .

We had a customer who fitted a popular version, wired so that it would break the circuit if it moved from the open position, problem was it didn't it only to cook his engine. Thankfully, his engine survived so it could be recovered without any great expenditure. It only broke the circuit when half way to the shut position.

If your engine is "sumping" to the extent that it needs a valve it is telling you something. Fix it!
I went the AMR route - great, but it didn't stop the oil so I had to find the root cause (in my case) - leaking oil pump gasket.
If you fit a valve, also get some balls of "Bluetack" to put over the warning lights of your car. They tell you things you can cover up too!

Britstuff said:

I use one on my 1974 Commando 850, (also on two other bikes). Wired to interrupt my electronic ignition, works great. Is smaller and in my humble opinion more discreet than the feked offering. I consider it to be well made and durable.

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Thanks Britstuff for the picture of your installation--attached is mine that is done the same. The only problem that I had was with the electrical connectors. They were merely tiny screws with very small flat spots on the points that just pressed directly against the wire when tightened--there were no additional clamps to squeeze the wire like I usually see with this type of connector. I had used 18 gauge stranded wire and they would not tighten against that--I had to splice on a short piece of solid wire and then bend it at a slight angle at the end and try to wedge it around the screw while tightening in hopes of making a good solid connection. I finally got this done and tugged real good on the wires, but I'm not real comfortable that they will withstand the vibrations. How did you address this?

HouTexNorton said:

Thanks Britstuff for the picture of your installation--attached is mine that is done the same. The only problem that I had was with the electrical connectors. They were merely tiny screws with very small flat spots on the points that just pressed directly against the wire when tightened--there were no additional clamps to squeeze the wire like I usually see with this type of connector. I had used 18 gauge stranded wire and they would not tighten against that--I had to splice on a short piece of solid wire and then bend it at a slight angle at the end and try to wedge it around the screw while tightening in hopes of making a good solid connection. I finally got this done and tugged real good on the wires, but I'm not real comfortable that they will withstand the vibrations. How did you address this?

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Hi HouTexNorton:

Very shiny, nice!

I regret I am not sure what gauge wire I used. Most of what I use is recycled from old wiring looms. For some reason (nowadays) I have a hard time finding decent multiple copper core wire, similar in gauge to the original factory thickness. The stuff I find at the local hardware store or Amazon seems to be excessively thin stranded garbage. Am I the only one with this problem? Maybe I just need to go to a decent electrical supply store?

Anyway, I used salvaged multi stranded copper cored wire of similar gauge to that originally used by the factory. I ran the wires up vertically and forward along the top frame tube and interrupt the connection between the white/blue wire (1974 Commando) that goes to my Lucas Rita electronic ignition, (I think the white/blue wire runs to a ballast resistor and the coils on a standard points setup).

In regards to the electrical connection to the tap, (apart from the obvious make sure the wires are routed smoothly), I stripped the wire back 3/8" or so, lightly twisted the ends together, then tinned the ends of the wires with electrical solder. That way when the tap screws are tightened, the solder deforms around the end of the screw resulting is a secure connection. As you may already know, the trick is to only tin lightly at the lowest heat possible to achieve decent flow. Too hot and the solder will flow too far up the wire and make it brittle / liable to snap under vibration.

Hope this helps!

Britstuff said:

Hi HouTexNorton:

Very shiny, nice!

I regret I am not sure what gauge wire I used. Most of what I use is recycled from old wiring looms. For some reason (nowadays) I have a hard time finding decent multiple copper core wire, similar in gauge to the original factory thickness. The stuff I find at the local hardware store or Amazon seems to be excessively thin stranded garbage. Am I the only one with this problem? Maybe I just need to go to a decent electrical supply store?

Anyway, I used salvaged multi stranded copper cored wire of similar gauge to that originally used by the factory. I ran the wires up vertically and forward along the top frame tube and interrupt the connection between the white/blue wire (1974 Commando) that goes to my Lucas Rita electronic ignition, (I think the white/blue wire runs to a ballast resistor and the coils on a standard points setup).

In regards to the electrical connection to the tap, (apart from the obvious make sure the wires are routed smoothly), I stripped the wire back 3/8" or so, lightly twisted the ends together, then tinned the ends of the wires with electrical solder. That way when the tap screws are tightened, the solder deforms around the end of the screw resulting is a secure connection. As you may already know, the trick is to only tin lightly at the lowest heat possible to achieve decent flow. Too hot and the solder will flow too far up the wire and make it brittle / liable to snap under vibration.

Hope this helps!

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Thanks for your response. I pretty much ran my wiring as you did to interrupt the white/blue wire connected to the white power wire of my Boyer IV ignition system installed under the tank (mine is a '72 Combat)--I can get quality stranded copper wire at my local auto parts store. I might try to find a properly sized crimp-on pin connector to use for the terminations--I would have preferred a connector that securely clamps the wire, especially with the vibration involved.