Wet Sumping - maybe an easy solution ?

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fiatfan said:
I can´t help being somewhat amazed over this, in my mind, strange issue... I drove my Norton for 10 years the first time I owned it, never had an issue with the "wet sumping", didn´t even know it existed! Spoke to a friend who also had a Commando back in the day, and mentioned the attention this has got today, and he just starred at me, wondering what the h-- I was on about? Is this really such a big issue? If you have your oil pump in good order, it has to be ok, or :? :?:
Tommy
Click to expand...


They don't wet sump when you ride them all the time, my Norton was a everyday ride since I brought it new and it never wet sumped in the 38 years, but since buying my Thruxton 3 years ago I am not riding the Norton as much and with some more work being done to it, so I got my first ever wet sump from sitting for over 3 months, but hey its 40 years old now and still have the orginal oil pump that has never been rebuilt, but its easy to drain the crank just do it the night before you go out for a ride.

Ashley
 
Adapters for spin on filters are no longer needed. There are readily available filters that fit now.
 
"Even worse than that .... is to have a Japanese, or HD guy standing by when you crank up and have clouds of blue smoke come out of your Norton."

How can excess oil in the crankcase cause smoke in the exhaust? Mine might wet sump but it never blows smoke. Were not talking about excess oil in the cylinders or head.

"So, ALL the 500, and 350 Velos made from around 1960 which had those anti wet sump ball valves are dangerous are they :?:"

Well, yes they are. I'm talking about the lever type ball valve in the feed line. It's not hard to forget to turn it on, especially if you have no oil gauge or warning light. We may be talking about 2 different types of ball valve here.

"Adapters for spin on filters are no longer needed. There are readily available filters that fit now."

Haven't found any with that thread available in AUS mate. Maybe some examples might help.
 
Thanks for the info on the oil filters. Unfortunately, Citroen's are rare and, of course there are ducati's here :) , but there are no dealers where I live. I could order both, just like I used to from my Norton supplier, but the easiest , and cheaper solution is to use the adaptor and go to my local auto shop and get them off the shelf.
 
My Mk3 would wet sump on multigrade oil after about a week . After switching to new oil filter ( with CNW adaptor ) and 40 weight oil the wet sumping now takes about 3 weeks , so it probably is just down to heavier oil . Its no problem for me though as I have Comstocks sump breather fitted so oil returns fast to the tank .
I may well go back to 20/50 weight oil though just for a greater range and also easier cold starting .
 
petejohno said:
"So, ALL the 500, and 350 Velos made from around 1960 which had those anti wet sump ball valves are dangerous are they :?:"

Well, yes they are. I'm talking about the lever type ball valve in the feed line. It's not hard to forget to turn it on, especially if you have no oil gauge or warning light. We may be talking about 2 different types of ball valve here." quote]

+1

The lever type is NOT a ball valve controlled by a weak spring, but you DID say ball valve.
I guess it was a misunderstanding. :shock:
Click to expand...
 
Here is my experience with a 1965 750 Atlas, engine was stripped and rebuilt with Dunstall Street camshaft, 10.5 pistons with 32mm carbs, a double speed oil pump was fitted , (6 start worm when previously was 3 start worm) crankshaft stripped and cleaned out & reground.
Re oil pump; the green Norton owners workshop manual states that the double speed oil pump was fitted for 1966 model, along with the 2 oil holes in the crankcase to the oil pump from the oil block drilled out to a bigger 5/16 diameter along with a bigger pipe oil block. All these mods were carried out.
Before this work was done I suffered wet sumping if the bike was left for a month, afterwards it occurred every week :!: :shock:
IMO, this wet sumping is a result of the oil holes between the crankcase oil block and oil pump being made too big.
With the benefit of hindsight, I would fit a restrictor there to reduce the hole that I had drilled out, to what it was originally before.
 
Thanks to all who have replied with constructive comments - LAB etc.
It gets annoying when replies state the bleeding obvious, reading too much into my original comments and just generally being a smartarse.
We're supposed to be here to help each other out when we can based on our previous experience. End of subject as far as I am concerned :x

johno
 
I don't want to be a smart arse... But I never experienced any discernible wet sump whatsoever on my Slimline MkII racer. I last rode it in October, 3 months ago, then I decided to have a look at the top end after the season, then fix an electrical shenanigan. I only restarted it this afternoon for the first time. It started second kick...and NO sign of wetsump. Nothing. Zilch. It started easily, no smoke whatsoever, continuous oil return in the tank for about 10 seconds and then the normal discontinuous flow.

Of course I did rebuild the oil pump 2 years ago, but it means that a properly set up and maintained 43 years old Norton engine does NOT wetsump. Even after 3 months. Not even a bit.

Sorry if I am being a douchebag, but I would never put anything between the oil tank and the oil pump.
 
I see some guys are wasting a lot of time trying to explain the benefits of oil filters with valves. They work fine as they are supposed to do, in a full flow system, where the oil come from the sump/tank, through the oil pump, then through the filter to the engine.

Lets face it. The commando has a return filter system which vents above the oil in the tank, so it is not possible for the filter to stop oil draining from the tank.

The oil drains from the tank via the supply line to the oil pump.

We can all Understand that cant we.

As for new bikes wet sumping. Mine did, thought it may have taken 3-6 months during the time is was never ridden. I remember one time it would nt start, and before I was a mechanic etc., I crash started it down Port St in Wellington. It started all right but the smoke that came out was horrendous. That bike has just clocked over 14,000 mils now, and although it does wet sump, it still takes about 6 months.

My current rider used to wet sump badly in a week. Since the engine rebuild, including re-facing the oil pump, it doesn't do it so badly and as a result, I don't turn the micro/switched ball valve off much now.

As for the micro switch. Well, I don't need to tell you why.

Dereck
 
Hi count my lucky stars for each and every one of the 15,000 miles I have ridden on my Commando
With that nefarious RGM anti wet sump valve installed. Clearly I am flirting with disaster. :wink:
 
I am also flirting with danger, for 20 years. Took a air line non return valve with rubber seat for the ball, reduced the spring length until it only supported an oil column slightly higher than the top of the oil tank which equated to an easy blow using the mouth. Yes there is a risk, you minimise it by always priming the oil line if disturbed and when you start the bike for the first time of the day leave it running long enough to be sure the oil being returned is fresh oil, this ensures at least the ball is not stuck to the seat as you head off.
 
Kber45 said:
The video below is about an anti wet sump valve

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UZDliLSCYAw
Click to expand...
my comment;
This bright spark hasn’t grasp the fact that the pipe between the oil pump and the ball valve needs to be PRIMED full of oil before start up, furthermore the ball valve should be VERTICAL ! Any Velocette Viper or Venom owner would tell you this. All 500 Venoms & Thurxtons have been using ball valves with a very weak ball valve spring since around the late 1950s :!:

other comment on that website:
Not a valid test. This is an extremely misleading video. Virtually every fluid pump must be properly primed to operate to full capacity, a fact well known in industry and by most mechanics. Established vendors of ball check valves destined for use in this motorcycle application routinely caution the oil lines must be fully flooded up to the ball, and from the ball thru the pump.
QED.
 
Bernhard said:
Kber45 said:
The video below is about an anti wet sump valve

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UZDliLSCYAw
Click to expand...
my comment;
This bright spark hasn’t grasp the fact that the pipe between the oil pump and the ball valve needs to be PRIMED full of oil before start up, furthermore the ball valve should be VERTICAL ! Any Velocette Viper or Venom owner would tell you this. All 500 Venoms & Thurxtons have been using ball valves with a very weak ball valve spring since around the late 1950s :!:

other comment on that website:
Not a valid test. This is an extremely misleading video. Virtually every fluid pump must be properly primed to operate to full capacity, a fact well known in industry and by most mechanics. Established vendors of ball check valves destined for use in this motorcycle application routinely caution the oil lines must be fully flooded up to the ball, and from the ball thru the pump.
QED.
Click to expand...


I disagree. With no obstructions (check or manual valves) in the supply line the pump will always be primed, as long as there is oil in the tank. The only anti wet-sumping device I would ever consider using is the spring loaded ball on the OUTPUT of the pump, commonly referred to as the AMR mod.
 
Bernhard wrote:
" Virtually every fluid pump must be properly primed to operate to full capacity, a fact well known in industry and by most mechanics. Established vendors of ball check valves destined for use in this motorcycle application routinely caution the oil lines must be fully flooded up to the ball, and from the ball thru the pump."

Jim C wrote:
"I disagree. With no obstructions (check or manual valves) in the supply line the pump will always be primed, as long as there is oil in the tank. The only anti wet-sumping device I would ever consider using is the spring loaded ball on the OUTPUT of the pump, commonly referred to as the AMR mod."

Both are correct, but the important nuance that must be considered is whether there is a spring check valve in the supply line which might cause a fluid void at the pump inlet (Bernhard's premise), or none (JimC's premise).

As Bernhard says,the video is deceptive, as a void was intentionally introduced. With proper priming, the spring check should work as intended, but I agree with JimC and would not bet my engine on it.

BTW, I have the AMR mod on my Atlas. After 8 weeks of standing and checking for an oil level drop, I believe I am losing more oil wiping the dipstick, than is leaking into the sump.

Slick
 
"Slick" wrote:
BTW, I have the AMR mod on my Atlas. After 8 weeks of standing and checking for an oil level drop, I believe I am losing more oil wiping the dipstick, than is leaking into the sump.

+1, :lol:
Tommy
 
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