easy wet sump solution ?

I've about convinced my self to remove the $250 worth of special oil filter and AN plumbing in Ms Peel OIF after first few start ups to catch crap before first oil change and save a few lbs of useless mass Norton and most all the vintage builders left out knowing it was just extra cost hassle w/o any benefit with the built in sludge traps in crank and cases and oil tanks. Sounds so crazy stupid until ya catch up on data available to think clearly on this emotional philosophical reflex. I was shocked to find about as much metal dust sludge in Ms Peel after only 7k miles with two filters and very often oil changes of about 1000 miles using only Mobil One 20/50 synthetic with too much fuzz seen on the sump magnet. I am pleased to see my wet sump rev up to cam break in cold starts has eliminated any magnet fuzz on Trixie with 8K miles since last case opening from a case cracking old style taboo piston break up I didn't know were lurking as ran so great just prior. hobot working against 4 decades of wish full thinking habits.

tomspro said:

JimC said:

Very true. The trouble with, "I ran so many years without a failure" is you are talking go or no go. Unless you do a tear down you have no idea how close to failure you may be.

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With no smoke coming out the pipes, compression of 150 in both cylinders, running strong and smooth, I am not going to lose sleep over a sudden 'failure' because I do not have an oil filter.
[sorry for the slight hijack - not intentional]

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Yes, you may be just fine without one. I guess the point is that although they may not be totally effective. it sure doesn't hurt to have one (oil filter). The bonus is a little extra volume of oil.

Yep a bit more oil and cooling but also another leak source to watch out for oiling tire w/o knowing till testing handling fun. As Nortons cooled pretty good a few decades before oil filters - reality is its just an extra expense and mass and connections for illogical but feel good proper sense about your Commando operation. I am taking '72 Trixie apart to re seal everything and as she's my test to keep it pretty faithful to factory issue I'll soon have a spare oil filter kit and connections to be rid of. The real place Norton need some filtering is before the oil pump to protect it from engine pieces on blow ups so give that feature some thought.

hobot said:

The real place Norton need some filtering is before the oil pump to protect it from engine pieces on blow ups so give that feature some thought.

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As a matter of fact all Commando's have this device called 'sump filter' except the Combat engine IMHO a technical mistake :?

My mkv wet sumps, I have at times, drained the oil from the engine, poured straight back into the oil tank, and I have kicked the engine over a few times to pump some of the oil back into the tank, I have also started the engine and let it pump the oil back to the tank, which worked fine.

I do have an anti drain valve to fit, in-line type, but reading this thread, might be best left off......

The nortec anti wet sump upgrade looks good, but no good to be posting the parts across the Atlantic!!, is there a company who can do the upgrade over here in Britain?, sorry to go off topic a bit!,

John

Maybe we should just hang our Nortons upside down from the rafters, and forget about wet sumping!

mkv750 said:

My mkv wet sumps, I have at times, drained the oil from the engine, poured straight back into the oil tank, and I have kicked the engine over a few times to pump some of the oil back into the tank, I have also started the engine and let it pump the oil back to the tank, which worked fine.

I do have an anti drain valve to fit, in-line type, but reading this thread, might be best left off......

The nortec anti wet sump upgrade looks good, but no good to be posting the parts across the Atlantic!!, is there a company who can do the upgrade over here in Britain?, sorry to go off topic a bit!,

John

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Some pretty wild stories go around about anti wet sump valves. Any Norton will wet sump, depending the condition of your oil pump it will go slow or fast. Fitting an anti wet sump valve does not have to result in disaster. If you decide to fit an automatic valve make sure your oil pump is in good condition (40 to 60 psi hot). The problem of most spring loaded valves is that the spring is loaded way too strong. The valve should have a spring load as light as possible to minimize resistance but just strong enough to stop the oil sumping. I have tested three types of automatic anti wet sump valves: RGM valve (closed alloy body), CNW valve (alloy with see-through part in the middle) and HNW oil tank valve. Compared to using none the RGM type valve effected an oil pressure drop of approximately 10% throughout the rev range where the CNW valve caused oil pressure loss close to nothing and the HNW valve causes no oil pressure drop at all. When I took the valves apart I found out the RGM type valve has a reasonably tight spring to press a steel ball on its seat preventing oil from entering where the CNW valve has a synthetic ball hold by a less tight spring and the HNW oil tank valve has a larger soft spring and ball pressing against a rubber seating instead of an alloy seating of the former two valves. I have used the HNW oil tank valve now for over 30.000 mls (I also have fitted a pressure gauge) and will continue to use it until someone comes up with an even better one :!:

tomspro said:

JimC said:

Very true. The trouble with, "I ran so many years without a failure" is you are talking go or no go. Unless you do a tear down you have no idea how close to failure you may be.

Click to expand...

With no smoke coming out the pipes, compression of 150 in both cylinders, running strong and smooth, I am not going to lose sleep over a sudden 'failure' because I do not have an oil filter.
[sorry for the slight hijack - not intentional]

Click to expand...

You are not in tune with your engine if you think you have no oil filter in your Commando :!:
You already have a centrifugal oil filter in your crankshaft, after 100,000 miles of running you will have a lot of crud in there :!: :shock:

Some pretty wild stories go around about anti wet sump valves. Any Norton will wet sump, depending the condition of your oil pump it will go slow or fast. Fitting an anti wet sump valve does not have to result in disaster. If you decide to fit an automatic valve make sure your oil pump is in good condition (40 to 60 psi hot). The problem of most spring loaded valves is that the spring is loaded way too strong. The valve should have a spring load as light as possible to minimize resistance but just strong enough to stop the oil sumping. I have tested three types of automatic anti wet sump valves: RGM valve (closed alloy body), CNW valve (alloy with see-through part in the middle) and HNW oil tank valve. Compared to using none the RGM type valve effected an oil pressure drop of approximately 10% throughout the rev range where the CNW valve caused oil pressure loss close to nothing and the HNW valve causes no oil pressure drop at all. When I took the valves apart I found out the RGM type valve has a reasonably tight spring to press a steel ball on its seat preventing oil from entering where the CNW valve has a synthetic ball hold by a less tight spring and the HNW oil tank valve has a larger soft spring and ball pressing against a rubber seating instead of an alloy seating of the former two valves. I have used the HNW oil tank valve now for over 30.000 mls (I also have fitted a pressure gauge) and will continue to use it until someone comes up with an even better one :!:[/quote]

Interesting story about the strength of the ball spring, I would suggest seeing if fitting a original Velo one would make any difference :?:
these are very weak being made from XX tho wire.

THE PROBLEM I FOUND WITH WET SUMPING IS also the oil can leak through to the primary drive on older bikes. Found out the first time when it all started coming out onto the rear chain. what a mess. I have a brass ball valve in place now on the 850 and another one waiting to be fitted to the 750, but that one leaks down over 3-6 months so not a problem.

I put a McMaster Carr 3/8" ball valve on my feed line and love it. No more draining and refilling the tank. Just remember to turn the valve on before starting.

A fully wet sumped empty oil tank should not leak and if it does cold then will also leak more while riding with heated thinned oil and expanded engine seams vibrating like crazy to be blown off unknown till parking. This subject reminds me of a parable about a town voting to buy an ambulance and crew because of all the people falling off their local look out, instead of a just a railing. Hope Philup can hold his liquor and memory every time or just don't move valve but at home base. If it significantly wet sumps on just a pub visit ugh, serves him right abusing us and his Commando daily. How about a solenoid that only comes on with current flow to ignition? Oh NO Mr. Bill not the wet sump!

Any problems out there with the AMR valve modification? How does it compare to the CNW valve mod?

elefantrider said:

Any problems out there with the AMR valve modification? How does it compare to the CNW valve mod?

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I can 't seem to find reference to a CNW mod on their web site. What do they do?

I put a very nice McMaster Carr 3/8ths ball valve on my feed line and a big red flag on my ignition key......solved the wet sumping problem for me.

phillyskip said:

I put a very nice McMaster Carr 3/8ths ball valve on my feed line and a big red flag on my ignition key......solved the wet sumping problem for me.

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I have used the same method for years now. Many will remind us that we are the authors of our own fate. Or is that odors of our own feet. You know what i mean.

Duh, its Do not shoot your own self in foot trying to solve a non issue risk if ya forget to pull the trigger first before roaring off. Tiny magnet to leave key on handle about fool proof as no need while out and about to wet sump worry, you hope.

Seeing how I'm a few pieces shy of being a complete idiot I made this idiot proof valve. Along with the beeping the bike will not start until the valve is in the on position. The day I somehow screw this up I'll give up riding bikes as it will occur to me that I'm just too stupid to own one. :mrgreen:

Art

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Rather clever fail safe solution that's a delight to see to avoid blowing the poor ole crank seal brains out : )

Art,excellent solution!