Wet Sumping - maybe an easy solution ?

JimC said:

[ I disagree. With no obstructions (check or manual valves) in the supply line the pump will always be primed, as long as there is oil in the tank. The only anti wet-sumping device I would ever consider using is the spring loaded ball on the OUTPUT of the pump, commonly referred to as the AMR mod.

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Like the video on You Tube it has clearly gone over the top of your head on how the spring loaded ball valve works;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZDliLSCYAw&app=desktop

Spot the mistakes :!: :shock:
Velocette was successfully using these spring loaded ball valves for over 12 years on their big four strokes, I had a Vemon for 5 years and I have first hand experience -I know that they work if used as per instructions, -Not like this self-educated Dude on you tube who hasn’t grasped the principles of this anti drain method.
Firsrt ; the ball valve should be vertical-NOT horizontal as in the Video.
Second; we are talking about priming the pipe BETWEEN the ball valve and the oil pump-this section of the pipe should be full of oil, NOTHING to do with the oil tank. It clearly states in the Velo handbook that the pipe below the oil valve should be unbolted (which you can do on a Velo :!: -surprise, surprise :!: :shock: ) and filled full of oil before re-bolting and starting the engine., any air bubbles in the section of pipe here WILL result in failure :!: :!: NOTE :!: - this section should be 100% leak proof-or it will not work :!:
I ask you, whom would you trust, some self-educated Dude who posted this misleading garb on you tube who hasn’t got any engineering qualification to his name or a company that actually MADE motorcycles from 1904 until they shut the factory doors in 1971, won rounds of the 350 world championship, won several of the 500 production class in the IOM TT, and the Motorcycle 500 miler on a privately entered bike (Geoff Donkin)
And, wait for it, their 500 is STILL the only bike to set the 24-hour world record at a speed of 100.05 mph in 1961. No motorcycle of the same capacity has been able to equal this record.

http://us.wow.com/wiki/Velocette_Veno

http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/ ... 0_1951.htm

if you are going to say the dude on You Tube, you clearly need your bonny little head examined :!: :shock:

I agree that the spring loaded ball valve will work when it is primed, after standing for two months mine became unprimed as the oil below it trickled away. I checked for a flow of oil returning to the tank.(residual from the crankcases) and saw a flow. Ten miles down the road it all nipped up and cost me dearly. with a clear pipe I maybe could have seen the oil below the valve but with black rubber pipe no. The springs in these things are too strong IMHO

Since Velocette is frequently cited for having a ball and seat check valve to stop wet sumping, and I have many years of experience on the things, I thought (against my better judgement!) I'd put in my two-cents worth. The Velo ball sits in a aluminum housing on the tiniest wisp of a conical coil spring. It sits at the bottom of the oil tank, and was designed that way by some pretty talented engineers. It is not being grafted in the middle of an oil line further downstream, like a lot of these aftermarket valves that I've seen. In most cases on Velos, they seem to be effective. I resurrected a '53 Velocette MAC that had set so long, I had to remove the chunks of petrol from the tank with a screwdriver, but the oil was still up in the tank. Most Velo riders pay careful attention to priming the oil feed line prior to start-up when they have sat for any length of time. And that's really about it. I have read so much about these things by so many people - a copy of the phone book-size Velocette Compendium of many years worth of Velo discussion is in my nightstand. Along with Bruce Main-Smith and Rod Burris books. Never have I read or heard anywhere that a ball valve has failed to open and cost someone an engine. In fact, the Velo Owner's Club in England sells a nitrile ball to replace the steel ball in cases where it still leaks a little. Velocette's use of this valve in no way guarantees a similar arrangement in any other machine. It was designed in to go along with the type of oil pump, and lubrication system. This leads me to conclude:

1) I'm not going to remove or worry about the ball valve in my Velo - other than checking the priming of the oil line when it's sat a long time

2) I'm not going to install any type of ball or valve on my '72 Commando

3) My MKIII still manages to wet sump a little even though the whole assembly in the timing cover is clean and in good condition. Meh. YMMV

Like the video on You Tube it has clearly gone over the top of your head on how the spring loaded ball valve works;

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Condescending remarks aside, you are the one who is obviously having something go over your head. When any type of valve, spring loaded or otherwise, is introduced into the oil pump supply line there is an unwanted, unwarranted risk of the pump losing its prime. You may like to bleed the oil junction block on a Norton each time you fire up after sitting for a few days, but I'm willing to wager you are among the very few who would be in favor of doing that. Me, if I'm troubled by wet sumping, I'll send my timing cover to AMR and pay my $70 or so. Much, much cheaper than a bottom end replacement.

gripper said:

after standing for two months mine became unprimed as the oil below it trickled away. I checked for a flow of oil returning to the tank.(residual from the crankcases) and saw a flow. Ten miles down the road it all nipped up and cost me dearly.

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Does the above ever happen to Velos? I mean the oil below the valve draining away and losing the prime?

And if not, why not? For that oil to drain away, it has to be replaced by air, which has to somehow get there.

Can air creep back through the pump, from the crankcase, back up the pipe? On Velocettes? On Nortons? Could bubble travel be prevented by a lute (U-bend) in the flow route from tank to pump?

Or does loss of prime require some small leak around the pipe, to let air in?

No-one should get angry about this, except when the engine seizes in real life, off the forum.

I think the Velo valve has a very light spring and that may be able to be primed by air suction should the pipe below the valve become empty.

gripper said:

I think the Velo valve has a very light spring and that may be able to be primed by air suction should the pipe below the valve become empty.

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So they deliberately put heavy springs in aftermarket valves for Nortons and BSAs, that the pump can't suck open?

I'm incredulous.

Amazing.

I have been riding for 40 years, have owned at least a dozen bikes of all shapes and sizes (including 2 Triumphs and 3 Nortons), have a collective 130,000 miles on the odometers on the 3 bikes currently in my garage, and I still don't really know what "wet-sumping" is or why I should care one way or the other.

But I do find it amazing that folks get so excited about the whole thing. F- it and just ride, guys!!

pkeithkelly said:

Amazing.

I have been riding for 40 years, have owned at least a dozen bikes of all shapes and sizes (including 2 Triumphs and 3 Nortons), have a collective 130,000 miles on the odometers on the 3 bikes currently in my garage, and I still don't really know what "wet-sumping" is or why I should care one way or the other.

But I do find it amazing that folks get so excited about the whole thing. F- it and just ride, guys!!

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It might be hard for a Californian to understand but there are places that you can ride all year round. Maybe I should have told you to brace yourself before imparting that bit of wisdom. :mrgreen:

Triton Thrasher said:

gripper said:

after standing for two months mine became unprimed as the oil below it trickled away. I checked for a flow of oil returning to the tank.(residual from the crankcases) and saw a flow. Ten miles down the road it all nipped up and cost me dearly.

Click to expand...

Does the above ever happen to Velos? I mean the oil below the valve draining away and losing the prime?
And if not, why not? For that oil to drain away, it has to be replaced by air, which has to somehow get there.
Can air creep back through the pump, from the crankcase, back up the pipe? On Velocettes? On Nortons? Could bubble travel be prevented by a lute (U-bend) in the flow route from tank to pump?
Or does loss of prime require some small leak around the pipe, to let air in?
No-one should get angry about this, except when the engine seizes in real life, off the forum.

Click to expand...

If you care to look up the Velocette spring loaded ball valve and its oil pipe set up, you will realise that the oil pipe below the ball valve is crimped onto both the metal parts with a type of metal ferrule , ( NO jubilee clips here!) the oil union on the crankcase end is I believe of a similar type used on hydraulic brake pipes, but maybe with a bigger hole-this pipe is GAS TIGHT :!: and hence it gets NO air leaks;


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ferrule-for-3 ... HDV1nLKpiQ


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fuel-Line-Fer ... xy4dNS7YVW

gripper said:

I agree that the spring loaded ball valve will work when it is primed, after standing for two months mine became unprimed as the oil below it trickled away. I checked for a flow of oil returning to the tank.(residual from the crankcases) and saw a flow. Ten miles down the road it all nipped up and cost me dearly. with a clear pipe I maybe could have seen the oil below the valve but with black rubber pipe no. The springs in these things are too strong IMHO

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That was YOUR mistake
Velocette ALWAYS fitted a CLEAR pipe below the ball valve. The reason is any owner of these bikes only has to look to check if the oil pipe is primed full of oil.
ANY air pocket or possible air lock hear will result in dire consequences for your engine

gripper said:

I think the Velo valve has a very light spring and that may be able to be primed by air suction should the pipe below the valve become empty.

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No, no, no , and NO :!: :shock:
As the You Tube dude fully shows you his mistake on the spring loaded ball valve NO oil pump anywhere in the AUTO or Motorcycle world will overcome an air lock in the oil system, just as in the coolant system, if you carelessly fill your engine up with water without allowing the air to escape the water pump will not remove an airlock :shock:

I repeat Once again, the pipe below the ball valve should ALWAY be full on engine oil BEFORE starting your engine :idea:

Now I am becoming bored with this subject, if you still can’t see the wood for the trees………

I wonder if a reed valve modification to any parallel twin would create enough negative crankcase pressure to prime the check valve pretty instantaneously after a few cycles of the crank. The vacuum is greatest when the connecting rod's weep holes align with the oiling port in the crank. It would work like sucking on a straw in rapid pulses...

Personally, I wouldn't install either the check valve in the oil line, nor the timing cover check valve. I'd rather just drain the sump if I let the bike sit for a month or two...

Bernhard said:

Triton Thrasher said:

Does the above ever happen to Velos? I mean the oil below the valve draining away and losing the prime?
And if not, why not? For that oil to drain away, it has to be replaced by air, which has to somehow get there.
Can air creep back through the pump, from the crankcase, back up the pipe? On Velocettes? On Nortons? Could bubble travel be prevented by a lute (U-bend) in the flow route from tank to pump?
Or does loss of prime require some small leak around the pipe, to let air in?
No-one should get angry about this, except when the engine seizes in real life, off the forum.

Click to expand...

If you care to look up the Velocette spring loaded ball valve and its oil pipe set up, you will realise that the oil pipe below the ball valve is crimped onto both the metal parts with a type of metal ferrule , ( NO jubilee clips here!) the oil union on the crankcase end is I believe of a similar type used on hydraulic brake pipes, but maybe with a bigger hole-this pipe is GAS TIGHT :!: and hence it gets NO air leaks;


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ferrule-for-3 ... HDV1nLKpiQ


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fuel-Line-Fer ... xy4dNS7YVW

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Thanks that's the sort of thing I was wondering about. "NO air leaks" (ever) sounds optimistic though, even with good connections.

Triton Thrasher said:

Bernhard said:

Triton Thrasher said:

Does the above ever happen to Velos? I mean the oil below the valve draining away and losing the prime?
If you care to look up the Velocette spring loaded ball valve and its oil pipe set up, you will realise that the oil pipe below the ball valve is crimped onto both the metal parts with a type of metal ferrule , ( NO jubilee clips here!) the oil union on the crankcase end is I believe of a similar type used on hydraulic brake pipes, but maybe with a bigger hole-this pipe is GAS TIGHT :!: and hence it gets NO air leaks;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ferrule-for-3 ... HDV1nLKpiQ

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fuel-Line-Fer ... xy4dNS7YVW

Click to expand...

Thanks that's the sort of thing I was wondering about. "NO air leaks" (ever) sounds optimistic though, even with good connections.

Click to expand...

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Does your fuel pipe leak when they are professionally crimped with ferrules :?:
The Velo oil pipe connections are done this way at both ends, the method of bolting the oil pipe union to the crankcase is by a similar type bolt to front/rear brake hydraulic M/cylinder, with copper washers, and the oil pump on the Velocette is a round body which fits inside an accurate round section of the bottom crankcase which is a tight fit and would need heating to remove the oil pump from the crankcase.

I will write and post an article of my own opinion on this misunderstood subject in due course.

I must admit that the "airlock" effect preventing los of prime under a ball valve never occurred to me. I'm one of those who will benefit from your article.


Yes, crimped fuel pipe ends sometimes leak.

Yes, a reed valves work, after sitting a while I kick it over a few times and the reed valve quickly evacuates the sump of my '73 750, which year model has the vent on the bottom of the sump.