easy wet sump solution ?

A reed valve breather, mounted in/at the crankcase, such as offered by Commnoz, CNW and others, quickly pumps excess oil out of the crankcase, just three or four cranks on the kick starter pumps most of it out. The swept volume of those two pistons on the down stroke pushes that oil through the reeds and up into the oil tank.

xbacksideslider said:

A reed valve breather, mounted in/at the crankcase, such as offered by Commnoz, CNW and others, quickly pumps excess oil out of the crankcase, just three or four cranks on the kick starter pumps most of it out. The swept volume of those two pistons on the down stroke pushes that oil through the reeds and up into the oil tank.

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That's a pretty foolproof way to deal not only with case pressure but also offset wet-sumping, if it returns oil to the tank that quickly, then what's not to like? Provided one has a good-working oil pump to start with.

worntorn said:

JimC said:

worntorn said:

I am not sure of much but I am sure that I will never start my 650 without full oil supply to the pump. There is no way around it, the ignition key needed to start the bike is stuck in the valve.
Doesn't matter whether someone else approves of it or declares it a "no go", it works for me. Most importantly I enjoy the bike more because I can hop on it and go without draining/refilling oil etc plus it isn't pissing out oil on my shop floor when parked for a month or so. That's all it's really about for most of us, just getting some fun out of these old machines and aging bodies.


Glen

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If you have an inline shutoff valve you don't always have a full oil supply to the pump. Depending on how fast the pump wet sumps and how long the bike has not been running, there may be a complete lack of oil in the line from the shutoff valve to the pump intake. Whereas, a valve on the output side of the pump insures the pump will be primed, regardless how fast it wet sumps or how long the bike sits without running. I would not be very comfortable parking my bike in public with the ignition key available to anyone.

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The key isn't available to anyone when the bike is parked, it is in my pocket, same as before.
I have always checked for oil flow when cold starting and there is no difference in lag time until return flow shows up with the valve fitted. It's almost instant, same as before.

Glen

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So you pull the key from the valve when you park the bike. Is the ignition wired to the valve? If not I can see a real potential to starting that bike with the oil shut off. 20 or so years of habit putting the key in the ignition to start the engine might just overcome the shorter memory of putting the key in the shutoff valve first. I know it would with me.

He only closes the valve and thus leaves the key in it, when the bike is home in his garage. At least that's what I gathered from this thread.

Jim, no the items you mention are not a problem. I believe you pointed out these weaknesses in my valve awhile ago when I first posted about the valve. I explained how it works and that security is not an issue then.
I don't seem to be explaining it well, so perhaps if you go back in this thread to where I posted the photos, all will be revealed. No wires, no risk of someone starting the bike without oil on, no increased risk of someone stealing the bike.
Cyclegeezer is correct. I would only shut the oil off if laying the bike up in the shop for more than a week or so.


Jim's reed breather is a great idea, but I still prefer the antisump valve for this bike. The antisump valve got rid of the oil that weeps out when the sump is overfull and the bike is sitting, the reed valve won't help there. With a normal amount of oil in the sump, the engine stays dry and does not drip on the floor. Without the valve, once the crankcase filled oil puked everywhere and I would end up having to clean up a mess plus waste good oil.
Also, I don't like what happens when a bike is started with a near full sump. When my bikes are fully wetsumped and started, they produce clouds of blue smoke for a few minutes until everything clears. As far as coking up the head, this is not a good thing.
Maybe this doesn't happen with a full sump and a reed breather tho?

Here is the thread of Jim Comstock's wetsump startup with reed breather. For those who believe preventing wet sumping is as easy as doing proper oil pump maintenance, note that on the video Jim mentions the bike has sat for three weeks and is fully wetsumped. I would say that if Jim's oil pump allows wetsumping after three weeks, then the rest of us aren't likely to do any better by working away on our oil pumps.


wet-sump-start-t20950.html?hilit=wet%20sump

I found the same thing as Glen. With a crank full of oil, it was dripping all the time. My oil tank is empty in about 2 weeks. When I installed the valve, no more drips, no big smoke startups and no oil draining. For me it works, but I use the micro-switch. I suppose it could fail 'on' and I start up without opening the valve, but that's something I haven't experienced. Same thing could happen to IronJohn's switch but I'm supposing it's pretty remote. But certainly it's not for everyone. "Can't we just all get along?"

Ha even my blow by blasted factory Combat now down to the crank for oil leaks on hi throttle or 70 mph, full wet sumped [awaiting tear down] yet no drips with Hylomar so you'al with parked leakers are airing dirty laundry in public. I must agree wet sump only happens when Commando not operated as often as designed for with commonly loose clearance oil pumps to create a large market with inventive DIY's. Maybe 'cleanest fool-poofest proper correct best thought out' solution > would be to place the oil pump in the oil tank to pump oil up a hump in hose above tank oil level, if ya had a another stupid valve in line to prevent its siphoning all out, ugh. For the crude owners with actually oil tight seams just see if a bit of oil still over the tank screen then let it pump oil back. There's enough expected oil burn/loss that usually just adding few oz's after a full wet sump would not over flow anywhere.

Had the AMR/Nortech mod done about a month ago. Oil level is rock steady on a bike that would drain the tank in 3 days. $70 and completely invisible.

glen
you bring up points that I keep telling these non believers about the trouble with a wet sumped engine. it is asking a lot of the rings to stop that much oil from passing and you risk pushing out the crank seal. as to oil pump maintenance there is a lot that you cant fix. the only part that is fixed is the end play but you can't fix gear OD to cavity or gear tip to tip clearance nor shaft to housing where you can get the wet sump issue's. as I have stated on here numerous time's the intake side is NO place to put a spring loaded check valve and norton and AMR got it right with putting it on the pressure side. on the other side I don't see a real problem with a shut off with an interlock so it cant be started.

worntorn said:

.

Without the valve, once the crankcase filled oil puked everywhere and I would end up having to clean up a mess plus waste good oil.
Also, I don't like what happens when a bike is started with a near full sump. When my bikes are fully wetsumped and started, they produce clouds of blue smoke for a few minutes until everything clears. As far as coking up the head, this is not a good thing.
Maybe this doesn't happen with a full sump and a reed breather tho?

Here is the thread of Jim Comstock's wetsump startup with reed breather. For those who believe preventing wet sumping is as easy as doing proper oil pump maintenance, note that on the video Jim mentions the bike has sat for three weeks and is fully wetsumped. I would say that if Jim's oil pump allows wetsumping after three weeks, then the rest of us aren't likely to do any better by working away on our oil pumps.

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Wet sumped? Meh...just kick it over and keep the revs below 3K for a couple of minutes and ease out of the driveway. Seriously, out of the thousands of members on this Forum I would like to hear one testimony about their seal failures. Much to do about nothing IMHO. And "windy", it's been too long, my Friend...we need to reconnect.

My 850 blew it's main seal due to a full sump.

There are a few others here who have done the same.

Glen

worntorn said:

Jim, no the items you mention are not a problem. I believe you pointed out these weaknesses in my valve awhile ago when I first posted about the valve. I explained how it works and that security is not an issue then.
I don't seem to be explaining it well, so perhaps if you go back in this thread to where I posted the photos, all will be revealed. No wires, no risk of someone starting the bike without oil on, no increased risk of someone stealing the bike.
Cyclegeezer is correct. I would only shut the oil off if laying the bike up in the shop for more than a week or so.


Jim's reed breather is a great idea, but I still prefer the antisump valve for this bike. The antisump valve got rid of the oil that weeps out when the sump is overfull and the bike is sitting, the reed valve won't help there. With a normal amount of oil in the sump, the engine stays dry and does not drip on the floor. Without the valve, once the crankcase filled oil puked everywhere and I would end up having to clean up a mess plus waste good oil.
Also, I don't like what happens when a bike is started with a near full sump. When my bikes are fully wetsumped and started, they produce clouds of blue smoke for a few minutes until everything clears. As far as coking up the head, this is not a good thing.
Maybe this doesn't happen with a full sump and a reed breather tho?

Here is the thread of Jim Comstock's wetsump startup with reed breather. For those who believe preventing wet sumping is as easy as doing proper oil pump maintenance, note that on the video Jim mentions the bike has sat for three weeks and is fully wetsumped. I would say that if Jim's oil pump allows wetsumping after three weeks, then the rest of us aren't likely to do any better by working away on our oil pumps.


wet-sump-start-t20950.html?hilit=wet%20sump

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Well, hands up here, as I am one of those who has said "I fitted a new pump and wet sumping isn't an issue" or similar!

Now, this is true, however, I have now reflected on the fuller picture, and its not quite so 'black and white'...

Firstly, since finishing the bike, it had hitherto probably never stood un-started for more than 3 weeks at a time. Secondly, I have a Comstock breather fitted. So, even after 3 weeks, although there would be a visually evident drop in the level in the tank (albeit not much), when started, the sump breather very quickly returned oil to the tank to stabilise the level. Hence, to me, it was not 'a problem'. In fact, the idea of lots of oil splashing over the cam etc was good in my mind.

However, I just went to the shed now to check, it has been stood for 6 (maybe7) weeks. The oil level is down to a point where I can just see the top of the gauze filter, so it is lower than I've ever seen it before, and more to the point, lower than I'd be happy starting the engine through risk of cavitation.

To experiment, I removed the plugs and kicked it over, it took 12 kicks for the oil to start emitting from the breather return. Interestingly it took 10 more kicks before the oil return circuit was returning properly. Even when it was, the breather was returning far more volume per kick.

So, my conclusions are:

1. The AN pump does delay oil passage adequately to mean that wet sumping is not an actual 'problem' on a bike started every 3 weeks or so.
2. The Comstock breather is a very effective wet sump 'contaiment' device, as A) it should not allow the kind of pressure to occur that could bust a seal and B) it does return excess sump oil very effectively.
3. If parked for more than 6 weeks, I will drain the sump. But as this is (hopefully) only going to happen over the winter periods, which is when I change the oil anyway!
4. It is now clear to me that even a new AN pump does not stop wet sumping (although it does slow it). But, for me personally, it is still not a real 'problem' (due to the above points) and therefore I am personally still averse to placing impediments in the feed line. Even though it now seems clear there are some reliable options for this. So, it seems both camps, those 'for' and those 'against' such valves will still actually be able to survive!

All, only IMHO of course.

Nigel, there you go making sense out of a topic that we could have argued about for at least another four pages! :mrgreen:

Glen

yes - i had one fail to "flow" and would of blow the engine had i not heard it getting nosier - freaked me out and i removed it immediately

i also had another one separate and piss oil all over the place - i caught that one too as it occurred in the drive way

i felt extremely lucky AND WOULD NEVER USE ONE AGAIN!

like most topics - this has been beaten to death and there are those who won't believe the facts and those who will- good luck on what ever choice you make

m

baz said:

has anyone on here had first hand experience of an anti wet sump valve go wrong? i have been using them on nortons and other british bikes for over 25 years never had a problem they were fitted as standard on velocettes i believe

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A question I've had for some time, and I saw a reference in this thread too. How exactly does keeping the pistons at TDC have an effect on wet sumping?

When I remember to do it, it seems to work about 50% of the time (more often on the 72 and 73, less on the 74), or at least improve things somewhat, but for the life of me I can't see why it would make a difference. Any thoughts.

BTW, I have my 72 Combat engine completely disassembled for a rebuild - the PO inserted a gudgeon pin circlip in backwards and it came loose. I am VERY glad I retrofitted an oil filter when I restored everything except the engine about 10 years ago, as the oil pump sacrificed itself instead of some other internals, sump gauze notwithstanding. Should have the crank back next week to start the re-assembly process. Needed to get rid of the old fiberglass gas tank anyway as it was starting to deteriorate from the ethanol we are forced to use. So once again, will be an almost new Norton!

Just after I posted this I saw the answer in another thread. Makes perfect sense now - with the crank at TDC the oil passages in the journals are closer in height to the oil tank which minimizes the pressure differential, and therefore the "seepage rate".

Thanks.

Norton74 said:

A question I've had for some time, and I saw a reference in this thread too. How exactly does keeping the pistons at TDC have an effect on wet sumping?

When I remember to do it, it seems to work about 50% of the time (more often on the 72 and 73, less on the 74), ...

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Then my guess would be that the 74's oil pump had the highest wear and the oild would drain from feed to scavenge via the shaft and the scavenge drillings.


Tim

Yep, that's my thinking too.

Will be interesting to see how my 72 does after tightening up the oil pump clearances, grinding the crank and installing new bearing shells.
I am expecting quite a difference.

Next is line is the 73 as I have a base gasket leak (cracked base flange). Will install new jugs and slugs, tighten up the oil pump, and do a valve job while I have it apart. Depending on how the bottom end feels when I have it apart I may do the bearing shells as well.

Then it will be the 74's turn. It's like painting a bridge - by the time you get to the other side it's time to start all over again!