wet sump solution

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marshg246 said:
True, but even if you get all five surfaces flat and with no clearance to to the gears, oil will still leak through the gears and there's nothing you can do about that but replace the pump and hope the tolerances are good. IMHO, it's simply a poor design choice by Norton and BSA to use that type of pump.
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I also meant where the cast iron plate is screwed onto the pump body - the pump bolts onto yhe c_ case. The edge of the plate stands proud of the body at the leading edge, you will never get it right until you file the excess metal off like I had to once.
 
Bernhard said:
I also meant where the cast iron plate is screwed onto the pump body - the pump bolts onto yhe c_ case. The edge of the plate stands proud of the body at the leading edge, you will never get it right until you file the excess metal off like I had to once.
Click to expand...
Agreed, that's one of the five surfaces.
 
Cheesehead Commando said:
I’m always amazed to hear other owners mention that it takes days, or even weeks, for their bike to wet sump. My ‘74 Commando will wet sump significantly over night. Always has been that way. After a total rebuild this past emoter, right down to the crank itself with all new bearings, it will still significantly wet sump within a day oR two.

One of the best upgrades I ever purchased is the reed valve breather (mine from NYC Norton) affixed to the bottom of the engine. No concerns with wet sumping, engine smoking, or seal issues any longer. Reduced crank pressure also means no oil leaks.
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I recently installed the NYC Norton reed valve breather on my '71 Commando. Relevant to this thread, one of the side effects of this upgrade is that opening the sump drain is a much more complicated operation. Certainly not something I would want to do pre-ride if wet sumping had occurred. I was ok with this because I had the understanding that the reed valve would mitigate the negative aspects of wet sumping, i.e. it would move the oil back to the tank rapidly and it would reduce the pressure in the crankcase so that the crank seal would not be blown out. It seems some folks on this thread are expressing dissenting opinions on that.

Also, I can't be sure of this because I never kept track before, but it seems that the bike is wet sumping more quickly than before the breather upgrade. Is it possible the reed valve makes it easier for oil to drain thru to the crankcase? It only takes a few days for the gauze to be visible in the tank.
 
I have a ball valve on my N15.
I ONLY close it when I know that I won't be riding the bike for several weeks to come.
This happens 2 or 3 times a year, at the most.
It takes little discipline to remove the battery FIRST.
The lever of the valve is ALWAYS removed and stays with the battery.
I (or a practical joker..) cannot casually close the valve, because I have to get the lever first.
There is an additional reminder on the battery tray and on the battery itself.
The shaft of the valve is color-coded for doublecheck.
I open the valve a few days before I plan to use the bike, together with the normal routine,
like checking tire pressure, etc..

Where is the risk?
What am I doing wrong?

wet sump solution
wet sump solution

If ever I become so senile as to take the battery off the battery tender, disregard the lever attached to it,
not see the warning on the battery, install the battery without seeing the warning on the battery tray,
start up and ride away without checking tires, brakes, oil, lights...
Then it is probably best that I blow up the engine, quit riding and find another hobby.
(maybe become a keyboard rider, like some of the muliposters on this forum..?)
 
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I have a hunch you won't have a problem Ludwig.
I'm special needs on these things. I did think about just pulling plug leads when stored with oil off.
I think that would suffice.
In the spring, " Why are both plug leads off?" Oh right, the valve is off.
I made the key in valve setup instead, it is safe to the highest level of senility.
I guess that would be were the oil is off, but also key missing from ignition and ignition off with me flailing away on the kickstart wondering why the bike won't start.
At this point I suspect I will also have forgotten to wear pants and should not be out in public anyway.
Even so, the engine won't start and won't be damaged.

Glen
 
Storm42 said " I was surprised to see that the upper shells had worn through to the copper."

The upper shells wearing through to the copper happens under load - pulling through the gears. If this happened on start and warm up in neutral the bottom shells would be worn through to the copper as well.

BTW - where the hell is the Magneto guy oil shutoff ignition interlock available to purchase?
 
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I bought a interlock shutoff valve on eBay some while back. On mounting it I found that the bike was hard to start (cNw electric starter).
It would crank, start and die. Crank start and die. Eventually catching and staying lit. It turned out that the wires were undersized to
supply the amps needed for the TriSpark and the dual coil. So......I bought this one.......

Engine & Transmission :: Engine Upper :: Oil Feed Pipes :: Anti Wet Sump Oil Pipe Tap With Switch - Magneto or Coil Ignition Systems

Anti Wet Sump Oil Pipe Tap With Switch - Magneto or Coil Ignition Systems A solution to a frequent problem of wet sumping. Available in two types - please selection option MAG TYPE: Magneto ignition engines - closed circuit - Tap OFF (to earth the magneto
www.feked.com www.feked.com

It has larger sized wires and works perfectly. Engine lights up immediately. I also have an oil pressure light and a Comstock reed valve breather.
Bring it on
 
The feked unit looks to be from Iron John. Not pretty but they work. If it is one of his, he has tiddlied things up some.

Glen
 
On my bikes where the oil is designed to be in the sump I generally am not concerned, a sight glass or bevel gazer does the trick. On my bikes with a separate oil tank.....they all have oil pressure gauges. Seems to be the (ok one) solution to concerns about anti sump valves, (I use one on a road bike)
 
I am a big fan of an oil valve with an interlock and am currently testing the Feked unit.

It is made by them, and is good quality.

wet sump solution

The good news is they do a normally open and normally closed flavour, so suitable for electronic ingnition/points ignition bikes as well as magneto bikes.

Engine & Transmission :: Engine Upper :: Oil Feed Pipes :: Anti Wet Sump Oil Pipe Tap With Switch - Magneto or Coil Ignition Systems

Anti Wet Sump Oil Pipe Tap With Switch - Magneto or Coil Ignition Systems A solution to a frequent problem of wet sumping. Available in two types - please selection option MAG TYPE: Magneto ignition engines - closed circuit - Tap OFF (to earth the magneto
www.feked.com www.feked.com

The unit is a lot less agricultural than the fitting that Iron John used to sell.

If I had any negative feedback on it, it would be that the micro switch is a little bit light duty for my liking.

wet sump solution
 
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jseng1 said:
Storm42 said " I was surprised to see that the upper shells had worn through to the copper."

The upper shells wearing through to the copper happens under load - pulling through the gears. If this happened on start and warm up in neutral the bottom shells would be worn through to the copper as well.

BTW - where the hell is the Magneto guy oil shutoff ignition interlock available to purchase?
Click to expand...

Engine & Transmission :: Engine Upper :: Oil Feed Pipes :: Anti Wet Sump Oil Pipe Tap With Switch - Magneto or Coil Ignition Systems

Anti Wet Sump Oil Pipe Tap With Switch - Magneto or Coil Ignition Systems A solution to a frequent problem of wet sumping. Available in two types - please selection option MAG TYPE: Magneto ignition engines - closed circuit - Tap OFF (to earth the magneto
www.feked.com www.feked.com
 
The guy that runs the Magneto Guys is the father of the guy that runs Kingpin Components, who make the other commercially available oil valve with electrical interlock.

www.kingpincomponents.co.uk

Oil Taps

www.kingpincomponents.co.uk www.kingpincomponents.co.uk

We have the magneto version of this valve on the 650ss and I really like it.
It is built well, is the most unobtrusive of the bunch, and there is nothing to fail - it’s a ball bearing riding on a thick metal strip.

wet sump solution

On the magneto version, the switch is closed in all positions apart from when the valve is fully open.
So the magneto is earthed until the valve is open.


Because you need the opposite action for electronic ignition or points ignition, their solution is to ship a micro relay with their ‘coil ignition’ version.
The valve itself is identical.

I don’t like this at all:
  • when the ignition key is on, but the valve is still shut, the relay is energised, breaking your ignition circuit.
  • when the ignition key is he, and the valve is open, the relay is not energised, and your engine ignition circuit operates normally.
Great that when the relay fails, you can ride your bike.
But not great that when the relay fails, you no longer have an ignition interlock.
It’s a tiny relay, and I feel not robust enough for use on our bikes - it feel that it will fail, and you won’t necessarily notice it.

My preference with this valve would be to wire it in to your horn instead.
No extra relays, nothing to fail.
If your oil valve is shut off, and you turn your ignition key, your horn will beep.
I think this is the most reliable way to use this particular valve on a coil ignition bike.

wet sump solution
 
gtiller said:
The guy that runs the Magneto Guys is the father of the guy that runs Kingpin Components, who make the other commercially available oil valve with electrical interlock.

www.kingpincomponents.co.uk

Oil Taps

www.kingpincomponents.co.uk www.kingpincomponents.co.uk

We have the magneto version of this valve on the 650ss and I really like it.
It is built well, is the most unobtrusive of the bunch, and there is nothing to fail - it’s a ball bearing riding on a thick metal strip.

View attachment 18576

On the magneto version, the switch is closed in all positions apart from when the valve is fully open.
So the magneto is earthed until the valve is open.


Because you need the opposite action for electronic ignition or points ignition, their solution is to ship a micro relay with their ‘coil ignition’ version.
The valve itself is identical.

I don’t like this at all:
  • when the ignition key is on, but the valve is still shut, the relay is energised, breaking your ignition circuit.
  • when the ignition key is he, and the valve is open, the relay is not energised, and your engine ignition circuit operates normally.
Great that when the relay fails, you can ride your bike.
But not great that when the relay fails, you no longer have an ignition interlock.
It’s a tiny relay, and I feel not robust enough for use on our bikes - it feel that it will fail, and you won’t necessarily notice it.

My preference with this valve would be to wire it in to your horn instead.
No extra relays, nothing to fail.
If your oil valve is shut off, and you turn your ignition key, your horn will beep.
I think this is the most reliable way to use this particular valve on a coil ignition bike.

View attachment 18577
Click to expand...
Hi, I had bought one from them , may be one year ago for a friend's bike , and there was no relay (coil ignition).....this year I need another one for another buddy , and the relay is there .......why ??? as you said it's not 100 % reliable why not fit a bigger relay , and what is the wiring for your solution ........?
 
@marinatlas they have two versions available:
  • Oil Tap with Cutout Switch for Magneto £43.00
  • Oil Tap with Cutout Switch for Coil Ignition £53.00
The valve is identical, but the coil ignition kit includes a relay.

My idea of using it to sound the horn eliminates the relay, and relies only on the ball bearing riding on the big arc of metal on the switch - by fart my preference!

Here is an overview of my findings:


My overview comes across as a little negative.
That was not my intention - I really like this valve, it is robust and simple.
I just don't like the idea of using a relay for the sake of it, particularly when it could easily fail leaving me thinking that I have a good safeguard when actually I have nothing.


Note that this is just my opinion based on my own findings and experience of the product.
I appreciate that there are plenty of people out there with other views and opinions, whom I have no doubt upset and/or enraged by posting this.
 
gtiller said:
@marinatlas they have two versions available:
  • Oil Tap with Cutout Switch for Magneto £43.00
  • Oil Tap with Cutout Switch for Coil Ignition £53.00
The valve is identical, but the coil ignition kit includes a relay.

My idea of using it to sound the horn eliminates the relay, and relies only on the ball bearing riding on the big arc of metal on the switch - by fart my preference!

Here is an overview of my findings:


My overview comes across as a little negative.
That was not my intention - I really like this valve, it is robust and simple.
I just don't like the idea of using a relay for the sake of it, particularly when it could easily fail leaving me thinking that I have a good safeguard when actually I have nothing.


Note that this is just my opinion based on my own findings and experience of the product.
I appreciate that there are plenty of people out there with other views and opinions, whom I have no doubt upset and/or enraged by posting this.
Click to expand...
Thank you Grant ........will do that when I will receive that oil tap (pity I dunno that before , as I had saved 10 £ !!)........
 
Or...

Pull the spark plugs out and push the e-start button for a few seconds?
 
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jseng1 said:
A couple people contacted me recently with blown motors and sad tales about oil line shut off valves (a terrible idea).

The only real problem with wet sumping I've heard of is blowing out a main crank seal. Too much oil in the sump is going to lube the cam and the journals. Too much oil in the timing chest is going to cover the oil pump and give you a spurt on startup for the rockers and its only a few seconds before oil returns to the oil tank to begin circulation. So that brings us back to the main oil seal blowing out.

Last night I realized that an Oring between the primary sprocket and the oil seal would prevent the oil seal from blowing out. An 1/8" cross section with 1-1/8" ID should fit very well and have minimum clearance. It hasn't been tested but I can't see a downside.

Forget about those disaster prone oil shutoffs. Throw in a cheap Oring instead (use silicone or viton for exposed belt drives so they won't dry out and crack). I hope this solution checks out positive and puts this whole wetsumping issue to rest.
Click to expand...

I view wetsumping prevention a good excuse to tell ones wife "I gotta ride or the engine may fail!" Truly, it gets me starting and riding them even if its for 30 minutes (of great therapy!).
 
It’s not rocket science. Put in the anti sump check ball. If you start the bike and the red light keeps going blink blinky then turn your shit off. Problem solved. The shut off valve is just plain stupid.
 
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