pazon timing and Madass (Don Pender) Carb Linkage Kit with choke - ???

though I did not wade through 5 pages of comments, I have another possibility...did you use the correct window on the stator plate for clockwise or counter clockwise rotation?

seattle##gs said:

though I did not wade through 5 pages of comments, I have another possibility...did you use the correct window on the stator plate for clockwise or counter clockwise rotation?

Click to expand...

yes CCW

i'm thinking I need to drop back and re-group. I might pull the carbs and go through everything again in detail. same with the timing and might as well double check all the wiring associated with the EI. couple really good points noted here. everything's there, just something out of whack. need to let my foot and knee heal up a bit anyway - been in too much of a rush lately.

One more overall rough timing test. Remove the rocker cover and spark plugs. Put in gear. Turn engine using rear wheel. When one of the intake valves is all the way down, look in that cylinder with a flashlight. The piston should be no where near the top of the cylinder. Keep turning the engine until that cylinder's intake and exhaust valve rockers are loose. Look in the cylinder - it should be near the top. Check that the rotor timing mark is near the timing marks. Make sure that it is the mark you are using. The idea here is to double-check that the valve timing is at least in range, that you're using the the right rotor timing mark, and that the rotor isn't screwed up.

Sometimes, the center of the rotor comes loose. Sometimes, the rotor key shears off or people forget to install it. If the rotor isn't right, the timing isn't right.

I know the last owner said it ran, but since you haven't been in the timing chest, you have no way to know that the cam is properly timed.

marshg246 said:

...check that the rotor timing mark is near the timing marks. Make sure that it is the mark you are using. The idea here is to double-check that the valve timing is at least in range, that you're using the the right rotor timing mark, and that the rotor isn't screwed up.

Sometimes, the center of the rotor comes loose. Sometimes, the rotor key shears off or people forget to install it. If the rotor isn't right, the timing isn't right.

I know the last owner said it ran, but since you haven't been in the timing chest, you have no way to know that the cam is properly timed.

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EXCELLANT POINT.

the rotor and stator and cam timing. not 100% sure, but here's a brief history of the bike before I bought it. previous owner purchased the bike in 2006 and had it shipped from Massachusetts. fairly sure it had the twin amals, and a boyer ignition system when it arrived here in florida. the previous owner installed the single mikuni carb, and rode the bike for some period of time - not many miles, but i'm thinking up until 2013 when he decided to make some mods. that's what he was referring to when he said it was running strong - prior to 2013 with the single mikuni and boyer EI. so in 2013, he started to install a CNW hydraulic clutch assembly along with low, café racer handle bars amd a corbin seat, a tri-spark ignition, and upgraded and installed a new 16A stator. he also installed a single, dual output coil. when he got into the hydraulic clutch, there was the issue of the handlebar switch assembly for the horn, kill switch, and high beam switch. he takes that cable harness, cuts it in half, re-soldered the connections, and tucks the circuit board up under the gas tank. during all this he also started to rewire things in the main harness under the gas tank. things were cut and spliced - most of which didn't make much sense to me. my thought was he was trying to rewire the bike so the headlight was on full time, and the switch on the headlight controlled the high beam. there was a half installed horn button integrated in with the oil pressure gauge mounting bracket. aside from the poor workmanship, the main harness was a complete mess. at some point from 2013 - 2016, his wife passed, he lost interest in the bike and it was pushed to the back of the garage. so it hadn't run in years and had several half installed mods and was an electrical nightmare.

it's funny what you say the rotor. during some of the maintenance on the bike, i drained the primary case, there was an excessive amount of oil that came out of the primary. i'm not talking a small amount of oil, i'm thinking the case was half full of oil. when I removed the case, the rotor/stator was flooded with oil. I did clean up things, but always questioned the whole assembly. like I said several times - I can't trust any work done by previous owner(s), so it could be everything is centered around that new 16A stator, the rotor, and cam timing.

I tore the bike down to the engine/gearbox, frame and rear wheel/swing arm assembly. installed new iso motor mounts and installed a new lucas wiring harness. I went back to the standard clutch cable, and wiring back to stock configuration. since I didn't have a warm fuzzy with the tri-spark, I bought the pazon and wired it to the two 6V coils. some of the parts I installed were new and came with the bike - e.g. the moroso spark plug wires.

I just assumed everything internal to the engine was correct, but now I'm having doubts. with what you said, i'm thinking I might need to go back to the basic cam timing. thanks....

The excess oi in the primary came from a leaky crank seal. The engine wet sumped into the primary through the crank seal.
Has nothing to do do with your starting, but you have a bad crank seal. Not a big deal to Replace.
Have you drained your sump lately?
Probably not your issue but a full sump can cause starting difficulties. Doesn’t allow the engine to spin fast enough.

MichaelB said:

The excess oi in the primary came from a leaky crank seal. The engine wet sumped into the primary through the crank seal.
Has nothing to do do with your starting, but you have a bad crank seal. Not a big deal to Replace.
Have you drained your sump lately?
Probably not your issue but a full sump can cause starting difficulties. Doesn’t allow the engine to spin fast enough.

Click to expand...

thanks - i'll check into the crankcase seal. never thought about that. just assumed the previous owner over filled the primary. I've got to quit assuming everything and anyything.

i'm beginning to think I have more issues than I realize. i'm done with this project til after the first of the year. thanks for all the help.

joe czech said:

bill - enjoyed the phone call today - hopefully we can hook up at nortona in march. anyway, looking forward to the event.

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Listen to bill. He could start the engines of the Titanic if they got it to the surface.

You can't stop yet... this is my favorite thread

concours said:

Listen to bill. He could start the engines of the Titanic if they got it to the surface.

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I hear ya - wish that guy was a half hour closer. according to bill, you also come down for the nortona event. if so, looking forward to meeting you and anyone else on the forum. I probably live within 10 minutes of flagler beach

maylar said:

You can't stop yet... this is my favorite thread

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OK bud, just for you - . I thought I was close, but again one step forward, two steps back. I guess I need to figure out a game plan. the first thing - is the excessive primary oil was caused by a bad seal, or poor maintenance. reading several old threads, it seems the seal is a common problem. good thing (if there is a good thing) - this will coincide with the rotor/stator/cam timing thing that greg march brought up. anyway, done a fair amount of wrenching in my life - problem is the lack of hands on Norton experience.

joe czech said:

... and to be honest, at 72, not sure I have enough arse left in me for this.

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In my 20's I could balance on one foot, stomp on it with a full sump, fire it up, smoke like a 2 smoker, then clear, and away I went. (I did not know about sumping then, I assumed it was bad valve seals or something.)

At 66, with a bad knee. It has to be on the center stand and stable. If it's been a couple weeks, I drain the sump.
I can't spin it fast enough with oil in the sump.
And then everything has to be perfect including the sun, moon and stars. Battery needs to be strong.
One thing I have started doing is I what used to do big 2 stroke singles. After the tickle, with the key off.
Hold the throttle wide open for 1, maybe 2 primer kicks to draw fuel into the combustion Chamber.
Bring it to TDC, Turn the key on, Barely crack the throttle and give it the boot. Starts one or two kicks. That's good, because after 3, I'm done. Need a rest with a possible nap.........

joe czech said:

OK bud, just for you - . I thought I was close, but again one step forward, two steps back. I guess I need to figure out a game plan. the first thing - is the excessive primary oil was caused by a bad seal, or poor maintenance. reading several old threads, it seems the seal is a common problem. good thing (if there is a good thing) - this will coincide with the rotor/stator/cam timing thing that greg march brought up. anyway, done a fair amount of wrenching in my life - problem is the lack of hands on Norton experience.

Click to expand...

Ya but you found the right place to ask. Cam timing could be a problem if the PO was into the timing cover, for chain or oil pump replacement. Otherwise if the bike was running, that's not likely.

MichaelB said:

At 66, with a bad knee. It has to be on the center stand and stable. If it's been a couple weeks, I drain the sump.
I can't spin it fast enough with oil in the sump.
And then everything has to be perfect including the sun, moon and stars. Battery needs to be strong.
One thing I have started doing is I what used to do big 2 stroke singles. After the tickle, with the key off.
Hold the throttle wide open for 1, maybe 2 primer kicks to draw fuel into the combustion Chamber.
Bring it to TDC, Turn the key on, Barely crack the throttle and give it the boot. Starts one or two kicks. That's good, because after 3, I'm done. Need a rest with a possible nap.........

Click to expand...

I hear that, brother. At 67 I have similar issues. The 850 starts easily when cold with a tickle and choke, it's hot that gives me fits. Like when fueling up during a ride. Needs to be on the center stand, which I have a tough time doing alone.

So.. I opted this year for an e-start. You can't imagine how hard a decision that was, taking an immaculate trophy winning bike that I've owned since new and making it into something else. In the end the desire to ride it rather than polish it won out. No regrets.

MichaelB said:

In my 20's I could balance on one foot, stomp on it with a full sump, fire it up, smoke like a 2 smoker, then clear, and away I went. (I did not know about sumping then, I assumed it was bad valve seals or something.)

At 66, with a bad knee. It has to be on the center stand and stable. If it's been a couple weeks, I drain the sump.
I can't spin it fast enough with oil in the sump.
And then everything has to be perfect including the sun, moon and stars. Battery needs to be strong.
One thing I have started doing is I what used to do big 2 stroke singles. After the tickle, with the key off.
Hold the throttle wide open for 1, maybe 2 primer kicks to draw fuel into the combustion Chamber.
Bring it to TDC, Turn the key on, Barely crack the throttle and give it the boot. Starts one or two kicks. That's good, because after 3, I'm done. Need a rest with a possible nap.........

Click to expand...

I was unable to start my bike sometimes after it hadn't run in a while. I didn't know about wet sumping then. When I discovered the issue
and drained the sump, I was able to start the bike. I believe most EIs require a minimum rotational speed of the cam in order to
trigger a spark and a crank full of oil certainly does slow down the engine cranking speed. Yes, replace the crank oil seal, and don't forget to seal the threads of the 3 bolts mounting the inner primary cover. Oil will otherwise seep through.
It was costly, but if I had not installed a cNw electric start kit 2 years ago I would not be able to start my Commando any more. I
done got old!

maylar said:

Ya but you found the right place to ask. Cam timing could be a problem if the PO was into the timing cover, for chain or oil pump replacement. Otherwise if the bike was running, that's not likely.

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OK - I don't think the PO was into the timing cover, but the PPO may have been. someone at some point in time had the cover off. i think the only thing the PO did was install a new 16A stator. i would like to pull the primary case just for a look at the rotor/stator installation. i did pull the oil level plug on the primary, and got out a couple ounces of excess oil, so i'm guessing there was that much seeped past the crankcase seal over the past couple month in the static mode. about the same time i serviced the primary, i drained the sump and filled the oil tank with about 2 qts of 20W50 and just topped things off with another quart. still undecided on the direction to go at this point. personally, i'd like to just get the engine running before i tear into the engine replacing seals and such. right now, i'm thinking on getting a couple new plugs, draining the sump (again), and giving it another shot.

one question, based on a 74 Mk2 roadster configuration, using stock peashooter mufflers, what specs on needles and jets should i be looking at for those amal carbs?

joe czech said:

one question, based on a 74 Mk2 roadster configuration, using stock peashooter mufflers, what specs on needles and jets should i be looking at for those amal carbs?

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Typically 260 mains , middle needle position, 106 needle jet. A MKII would have an RH-10 head (stamped above the right exhaust rocker cover), 32 mm carbs and special manifolds to taper from 32 mm to the 30 mm intake ports. It's a very powerful motor with gobs of torque and crisp throttle response.

i remember my 20's. i remember i had a lot more hair back then. i also remember the wife smiled a lot more back then too. gawd, my knees hurt....

that e-start is the ticket. i don't have an issue installing one. the issue is parting with $2500. if i'm going to get serious about riding this bike, i will have to up grade.

MichaelB said:

The excess oi in the primary came from a leaky crank seal. The engine wet sumped into the primary through the crank seal.
Has nothing to do do with your starting, but you have a bad crank seal. Not a big deal to Replace.
Have you drained your sump lately?
Probably not your issue but a full sump can cause starting difficulties. Doesn’t allow the engine to spin fast enough.

Click to expand...

Changing the crank seal is a 30 minute or less job if you have the special tool to take the clutch apart. A dangerous and/or nearly impossible job if not. I would focus on getting it started unless you have the clutch tool.

Good point to drain the sump. Afterwards, check the level of oil in the tank.

Take the primary cover off, remove the rotor - leave everything else in place. Check to see if the key is OK and if the center of the rotor moves within the rotor. If it does, PM me.

A good reed valve in the right place will clear the sump enough to start with just a couple kicks.

Especially good at this would be the sump plug one (if it fits your bike) from NYC Norton (they just got a bunch in.

joe czech said:

i remember my 20's. i remember i had a lot more hair back then. i also remember the wife smiled a lot more back then too. gawd, my knees hurt....

that e-start is the ticket. i don't have an issue installing one. the issue is parting with $2500. if i'm going to get serious about riding this bike, i will have to up grade.

Click to expand...

Not meaning to dissuade you, if you opt for the electric start, it will cost closer to $2800 after you upgrade the battery, buy a 3 phase
stator and buy a solid state regulator.