pazon timing and Madass (Don Pender) Carb Linkage Kit with choke - ???

The Pazon sure fire has a sleep function to protect the coils, so a few seconds after you turn the ignition on the Pazon as the Boyer does goes to sleep. The Boyer needs one signal from the 2 small magnets to wake up but the Pazon needs 2 signals and they need to be close enough together to show the engine is at a minimum of 200 rpm. So if you don't kick it fast enough it won't spark but the spark test works. A way round this is to turn the ignition on just before you do a kick second method is a bump start. Found this out on a B50 after days of me being able to kickstart it but the owner never could except but a bump start. I was kicking faster being 20 years younger.

joe czech said:

i remember my 20's. i remember i had a lot more hair back then. i also remember the wife smiled a lot more back then too. gawd, my knees hurt....

that e-start is the ticket. i don't have an issue installing one. the issue is parting with $2500. if i'm going to get serious about riding this bike, i will have to up grade.

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Yup.

It sounds like there are too many unknowns in place, or not in place from PO.
When I have been where you are now I just say screw it and start over. Unless I have made the modification or inspected the system, or the component influencing the system sequentially, I tear it down and rework the whole deal from the ground up eliminating the variables one by one. That way I have a mental reference and I shoot tons of pics as well that I can go back to if/when a question arises. I have been ambushed by assumptions of something being in order when it is not to go any other direction.
You will figure it out.
I just want to know can I come to the party you throw when it fires.

I wanna hear it run!

maylar said:

I wanna hear it run!

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me too. part of the problem is not knowing how some things work and how things all come together. wet sump, EI sleep mode, minimum RPM, etc.. just need to regroup, sort thing out, and give it another try.

Your thread brings back lots of frustrating memories including the rotor with the incorrect timing mark on it.
When deep in the hole as you are now I go back to the beginning.
Wire the pazon directly to the battery giving yourself a quick way to disconnect. snap connectors are good ...leaving the battery side fully insulated so when you disconnect, the battery wire does not flop over to a grounding point. The wires MUST use good crimped terminals..twisted wires will never do. Check for spark.

Next, take the carbs off, look at the MOTOR SIDE of both and set the slide height. I use a .040 wire gauge but a tiny drill would do just as well.
.040 should give a slightly high idle but it is a good place to start. .038 is about as low as you want to go. Stick the wire gauge under the slide and using the throttle screw adjust the gap as accurately as possible. This is a big help in getting it started. With all the trouble you've had I am sure the idle position is way out of adjustment. Time to go back and set it straight. Now you have ELIMINATED two big variables.

3rd...make sure the oil is out of the sump. It does make it easier to start.
My method of starting, and it works well on other bikes, is to tickle the carbs till they flood, then, with the KEY OFF and throttle closed, kick it through 3 or 4 times. Then turn on the ignition and give it a mighty kick. That seems to work better than a gentle kick.

There are several other possibilities but this will narrow it down.

+++ A MIGHTY KICK!! These bikes can sense a tentative kick and the wires lose their smoke. I don't know you weight
and athleticism, but I weigh 170 and prior to electric start and would have to leap into the air and bring all my weight
down on the kick start lever. Depending on height, weight, leverage, leg strength and athleticism, everyone finds a favored successful
system.

joe czech said:

me too. part of the problem is not knowing how some things work and how things all come together. wet sump, EI sleep mode, minimum RPM, etc.. just need to regroup, sort thing out, and give it another try.

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Joe, you have a load of folks rooting for you here, can I suggest you watch this inspirational video. Now some role playing is involved here, so you will be Peter Gabriel and I (OK we) will be Kate Bush (look somewhere else for the hugs though).


I also agree that for the moment forget the wet sump, Ei sleep mode, minimum RPM, etc.. and as Greg and others suggested go back to basics. I can tell from your posts you know your way around an engine, so I reckon it's something very simple. My money is on cam timing.

When you do get it going I have another track for you to listen to. Now isn't that worth not giving up for?

Cheers,

cliffa.

Joe,

I guy brought me a 75 Interstate to fix that won't start late this after noon. Single Mikuni, Pazon. Was not getting fuel - took the carb apart, looked new, float needle stuck not letting gas into the bowl. That's fixed, won't start. Checked timing - way off. Checked rotor - center loose. Replaced rotor, won't start. Checked Pazon magnet rotor - screw loose and rotor loose. Quit for the day - I bet it starts tomorrow after I properly time it. Moral of the story - it can be multiple things! BTW, the spark looks weak like you've been saying. I always use points or Tri-Spark and am used to much hotter looking spark. I wonder it that is a Pazon thing.

At least this one is electric start so I didn't wear myself out.

If you're going to take the primary cover off anyway to check the rotor and main seal, I find that a socket on the rotor nut is the easiest way to turn the engine over (CCW rotation) looking for piston position and valve / rocker settings. You can scribe a mark on the alternator with an awl at 30 degrees for reference before taking the cover off - the epoxy scratches easily.

I looked up those Moroso wires and they do appear to be non-resistor ends, so they should be fine. You also mentioned a Tri Spark - do you have one?

When I got my '74 850 two years ago, I had zero experience with kickstarting and zero with vintage bikes. I reported here having all sorts of trouble getting it to fire up. After much guidance from folks here, and even a visit from a local forum member, we got it fired up. Seems my kicking method was not correct...needed that last swing through the bottom arc of the kicker after getting pistons set at compression stroke. Then we discovered a flakiness to the original ignition switch. It seemed to test ok but contact would not stay closed during kicks! Could this be a factor it your troubles? Try eliminating most/all switches (kill & ignition) for a temp test kick. These early starts were with oem points. I replaced the ign switch with Emgo re-pro. I never rode the bike until after installing an EI (Vape-Wassell) unit. Starting issues are now essentially a thing of the past, despite loads of other changes I've made (coils/plugs/wires/carbs/wiring etc etc). So I must be doing something right ;-)

...and now fuel it some more.
Until it’s flooded.

marshg246 said:

One more overall rough timing test. Remove the rocker cover and spark plugs. Put in gear. Turn engine using rear wheel. When one of the intake valves is all the way down, look in that cylinder with a flashlight. The piston should be no where near the top of the cylinder. Keep turning the engine until that cylinder's intake and exhaust valve rockers are loose. Look in the cylinder - it should be near the top. Check that the rotor timing mark is near the timing marks. Make sure that it is the mark you are using. The idea here is to double-check that the valve timing is at least in range, that you're using the the right rotor timing mark, and that the rotor isn't screwed up.

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Is this adequate to verify that the timing chain isn't off by a link?

" pretty sure i'm getting gas, "

Until the plugs show you they have TOO MUCH fuel, (wet) it's a guess.



I've had the balance tube pop off with one mild "pufft" backfire (a few times). Starting was VERY difficult after that.
I glue the hose on now.

maylar said:

Is this adequate to verify that the timing chain isn't off by a link?

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No, just a very rough check to be sure that the cam key hasn't sheared, chain jumped, etc. Also, ensures that the engine stands a chance of running. I've mentioned valve timing several times in this thread. I would have pulled the timing cover long ago and checked for sure but I understand Joe's hesitation because it is supposed to be a running engine.

Update on the 75 with the same problem. Straightened out the timing and still wouldn't fire - not even a pop. Checked voltage to Pazon - no problem. Checked valve timing - no problem. Double-checked valve clearances, no problem. Compression good. Tried starting fluid - not even a pop.

I mentioned that the spark looks weak. Not positive and don't have the equipment to verify, but I think it is firing weakly multiple times per revolution. I know that powering the coils directly and then removing, provides a strong spark as it should. My timing light is the kind you click over a plug lead. Even though I can see the plugs sparking lots, the light flashes only once in a while with the plugs out and engine spinning on the starter.

Was sick most of the day so I ran out of time. Hopefully back on it tomorrow. I have plenty of Tri-Spark in stock, so I'll try that next. Since I know there is fuel in the cylinders at the right time, spark at the right time is the only thing keeping it from running.

kommando said:

The Pazon sure fire has a sleep function to protect the coils, so a few seconds after you turn the ignition on the Pazon as the Boyer does goes to sleep. The Boyer needs one signal from the 2 small magnets to wake up but the Pazon needs 2 signals and they need to be close enough together to show the engine is at a minimum of 200 rpm. So if you don't kick it fast enough it won't spark but the spark test works. A way round this is to turn the ignition on just before you do a kick second method is a bump start. Found this out on a B50 after days of me being able to kickstart it but the owner never could except but a bump start. I was kicking faster being 20 years younger.

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How silly! (Not you, Pazon/Boyer) With points, one or both coils are powered up as long as the ignition is on and the engine not running! If this makes any sense, it's to protect the electronics in the Pazon/Boyer unit, not the coils.

daily update - knocked off the bike today - having serious knee issues. ordered up new needles and jets for the amals, along with copper core champions. hopefully, I can pull the primary and check the rotor assembly and verify the timing, drain the sump, and give it another shot in a few days. knowing about the pazon sleep mode and the wet sump, maybe I can clean up a few loose ends. see you guys in a couple days.

quick question - sleep mode for the pazon ignition system - (just curious) - approximately how many seconds - 2, 5, 10, ???

Ignition Coil Turn Off (Engine Static): < 3 Seconds (Typical)
Minimum Cranking Speed: 100rpm (Typical)

So looks like the 200rpm is now 100rpm.

kommando said:

Ignition Coil Turn Off (Engine Static): < 3 Seconds (Typical)
Minimum Cranking Speed: 100rpm (Typical)

So looks like the 200rpm is now 100rpm.

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damn, that was a stupid question - should have read the instruction booklet a bit closer. those specs are listed under the technical data. it was there, I read it, it just didn't sink in. 100 rpm is good - better than 200, but in reality, 3 seconds is pretty quick - actually, the spec is "less than (<) 3 seconds (typical) - ignition coil turn off (engine static)" once the key's on, I better be jumping immediately on that kickstart! the 3 seconds thing could have been my friggin problem, or part of my problem all along. thanks kommando.