pazon timing and Madass (Don Pender) Carb Linkage Kit with choke - ???

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marshg246 said:
Update on the 75 with the same problem. Straightened out the timing and still wouldn't fire - not even a pop. Checked voltage to Pazon - no problem. Checked valve timing - no problem. Double-checked valve clearances, no problem. Compression good. Tried starting fluid - not even a pop.

I mentioned that the spark looks weak. Not positive and don't have the equipment to verify, but I think it is firing weakly multiple times per revolution. I know that powering the coils directly and then removing, provides a strong spark as it should. My timing light is the kind you click over a plug lead. Even though I can see the plugs sparking lots, the light flashes only once in a while with the plugs out and engine spinning on the starter.

Was sick most of the day so I ran out of time. Hopefully back on it tomorrow. I have plenty of Tri-Spark in stock, so I'll try that next. Since I know there is fuel in the cylinders at the right time, spark at the right time is the only thing keeping it from running.
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Been sick, but put in the Tri-Spark today - started right up. So, the Pazon was the final problem.
 
Seem to remember there was a batch of Pazons made with a duff component maybe back in 2018 but can't track down the post. Once it appeared and the fault noted by Pazon the dealer stock was recalled and replaced but no doubt the odd stray one could still be out there especially if it was bought just before the stock swap with the dealers. Lots of maybe's but until I find the post I can't be more definitive, it could have been the digital ones only as an example.
 
I love Happy endings.
The irony here is you replaced the Tri Spark with the Pazon trying avoid issues and the Pazon was bad.,........
 
MichaelB said:
I love Happy endings.
The irony here is you replaced the Tri Spark with the Pazon trying avoid issues and the Pazon was bad.,........
Click to expand...
Slightly confusing, I know. We haven't heard if Joe is fixed. I was just having the same problems with a 850 I'm working on for a guy. He had the Pazon for some time before all the sudden the bike wouldn't start. I did all the checks we told Joe to do and then replaced the Pazon with Tri-Spark and it started no problem. A new Pazon would have worked too but I like and stock Tri-Spark.
 
MichaelB said:
I love Happy endings.
The irony here is you replaced the Tri Spark with the Pazon trying avoid issues and the Pazon was bad.,........
Click to expand...
I've got my tri-spark sorted and in place, however, i'm going to give it one more shot. i'm going to go thru the carbs one more time, paying attention to the pilot circuit. when I rebuilt them the first time, I didn't probe the pilot jets with a .016 wire. I also purchased new needles and jets since i'm not sure of the current configuration.
marshg246 said:
Slightly confusing, I know. We haven't heard if Joe is fixed. I was just having the same problems with a 850 I'm working on for a guy. He had the Pazon for some time before all the sudden the bike wouldn't start. I did all the checks we told Joe to do and then replaced the Pazon with Tri-Spark and it started no problem. A new Pazon would have worked too but I like and stock Tri-Spark.
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update - ordered up some new needles and jets for the carbs - i'm going to go thru them a second time, paying close attention to the pilot circuit. I installed a non-resistor set of copper champion and planning on giving the pazon one last try. i will drain the sump, and if a no go, dump the pazon and install the tri-spark. carb parts just came today, so hopefully i can give it another shot this weekend.
 
Spark plugs, good idea. But if the carbs flood with gas when tickled, that's all you really need to get the motor started. And maybe the choke, if it's cold out. The rest of it will come into play for idle and running. Even a teaspoon of gas in each cylinder can get you started. My gut feel is that the Pazon isn't working right, like Greg said.
 
maylar said:
Spark plugs, good idea. But if the carbs flood with gas when tickled, that's all you really need to get the motor started. And maybe the choke, if it's cold out. The rest of it will come into play for idle and running. Even a teaspoon of gas in each cylinder can get you started. My gut feel is that the Pazon isn't working right, like Greg said.
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thanks - I agree - just not comfortable with the carbs.

OK maylar and others, get me up to speed on this wet sump thing. where i'm at - fresh oil change a couple months age - been sitting since. I went to drain the sump (for starting attempt purposes - both crankcase filter drain and magnetic plug drain) and stopped at about a half quart of oil. don't know much about the Norton dry sump system, but this seems to be a bit excessive, since it looked like I could drain the whole friggin oil tank the way the oil was flowing. am I totally screwed up on my thinking - doing something wrong, or do I have yet another issue?

when I originally got the bike, the oil tank was pretty much empty, drained the residual and when I first drained the sump, don't remember getting that much oil out of the engine.
 
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I'm not sure of the root cause, but there's even a note in the rider's manual about not topping up the tank oil level until having run the engine for a few minutes. A known issue even when they were new. I replaced the oil pump with a new one a few years ago and not seen any improvement.

How much and how long it takes varies a lot. For me, 3 weeks is enough to make kick starting difficult. When I drained the sump this year after winter storage, there was more in the sump than in the tank.

Edit: Drain it till it's empty. It won't flow fast enough to drain the tank.
 
It is a common condition for Norton Commandos to wet sump. Under the head pressure of the oil tank, oil slowly oozes through
the gears of the oil pump and ends up in the sump. The rate at which this occurs ranges from a) not at all, to b) quite rapidly.
This can be a function of how much wear the oil pump has been through. The service manual describes the procedure to
overhaul an oil pump. My Commando would drain about half the oil tank in the course of a month being laid up. Some have
experienced blowing out the crank seal due to the excess pressure build up when starting with a full crank case. Often oil will
leak through the oil seal or the inner primary case mounting bolt holes resulting in oil in the primary. While a quite contentious
solution, some install this item. I have had one on my bike for 12 years with no problems. If it fails, the engine is toast.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TRIUMPH-NO...649247?hash=item3fbf9c935f:g:w5UAAOSwM8NcqlH3

I recently bought one of these, below, to replace the one above, which provides the ability to shut off the flow of oil along
with an electrical switch which prevents the engine from starting if the valve is closed.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Anti-wet-s...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

There is a vendor in Tucson who will modify your timing case to stop the wet sumping. There are folks who will take your
oil pump and rebuild it for you with alleged great success in stoping wet sumping.

Search the archives for extended discussion of the issue, causes and cures.
 
this is kind of a misnomer. you cannot overhaul an oil pump. there are at least 4 arias where the oil pump can have wear issues and the procedure in the manual only address's only 1.
1 end play of the gears in the housing
2 gear tip to gear tip
3 gear tip to housing
4 shaft to housing wear

lazyeye6 said:
This can be a function of how much wear the oil pump has been through. The service manual describes the procedure to
overhaul an oil pump.
Click to expand...
 
Drain the sump dry, pour it back in the tank.
If you topped the tank off since it's been sitting, you probably have too much.
Don't overfill the tank.
Dry sump means it's supposed to be dry, relatively. Anything more than a couple tablespoons, means it's wet sumping.
It's normal and not really a big deal.

Once that's done, pull the primary level/drain plug, let it drain till it stops.
This puts the primary at the correct level, just below the plug.
Now you can monitor how much seeps into the primary, by checking the plug from time to time.

Once you are operational, you can drain the sump right after a run to see how much is in there.
I would just use the drain plug, leaving the screen in place. You'll notice very little drains.
This is your data point for reference.
 
Once you're running and riding the old girl, you will want to add a reed valve crankcase breather. Simple to do, and it makes a big difference in the amount of oil leaks you'll get at valve covers etc, and it could stop oil from migrating past the crank seal into the primary.
 
well, it's time pazon and I parted company. tried again - nothing. corrected (serviced) the wet sump thing, and i'm dead positive it's in time, carbs tickled, and just another disappointing day. beginning to think there's not enough spark energy in that pazon to start a friggin lawn mower. anyway, pazon's out and it's miller time. the tri-spark should go in fast since much simplified wiring. while I have it down, i'll go thru those carbs for needles and jets, and a new direction (has nothing to do with starting) - dump the factory header pipes (with crossover) in favor of in favor of single pipes. bought new - never installed, just sitting on the shelf. and just for grins and giggles, i'm going to double check the valve clearance again. my only concern is the tri-spark is an older version (purchased around 2013, its' new, never used or active). anyway, back in a few days - stay tuned....
 
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For what it’s worth , I fooled with similar issues to yours Joe ,off and on over several years .... bike now starts first or second kick , no oil drips anywhere , dump stays dry, pulls strong, runs and stops great , rides smooth , is comfortable, etc. , etc. .... my point is ,the time you spending now getting your Norton sorted will all be worth it and the bike will provide much enjoyment for you in the years to come ...
 
bill said:
this is kind of a misnomer. you cannot overhaul an oil pump. there are at least 4 arias where the oil pump can have wear issues and the procedure in the manual only address's only 1.
1 end play of the gears in the housing
2 gear tip to gear tip
3 gear tip to housing
4 shaft to housing wear
Click to expand...
Partly agree. #1 can easily be improved and helps a lot. If #1 doesn't do the job, then a replacement pump is most likely in order.

So far, I've never installed a new pump on a Norton or BSA (similar setup), I've just done step #1 or installed used pumps in better condition and I always do step #1 on those.

In a couple of cases #4 was the problem but the gears were good so I used them in a pump with good #4.

I'm always on the lookout for used Norton pumps from those who breakdown bikes but I ask them questions about the bikes the pumps come from if they didn't specify (how many miles, etc.)
 
Regarding switch to older style headers, note they should use the older, longer thread section rose nuts as they do not require the collets (needed to allow rose removal from the balance pipe headers only). That said, you can get away using the shorter roses if you double up the sealing rings (the steel type prefered over copper type since less compression and subsequent loosening from vibration).

Make the roses RFT and re tighten when hot. Check early, check often. Book called for something like 70 ft-lbs but most recommend pounding the wrench with small sledge hammer.
 
"Make the roses RFT and re tighten when hot. Check early, check often. Book called for something like 70 ft-lbs but most recommend pounding the wrench with small sledge hammer.[/QUOTE]

Yikes! I use a length of 1 1/4" steel pipe slipped over my rose tightening tool as a cheater for more leverage.
 
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