Norton Villiers Commando 1968 Re commissioning an adventures at 30

Thanks Baz I'll keep an eye on that great tip

Hi Guys as Time Warp mentioned got a potential problem with the crank bolt fitment into the connecting rod counter bore be interesting to get someopinions of you more experienced guys an gals on this. Decided to halt proceedings for now. An am awaiting the suppliers response

Cheers,

Tom

How can you be sure they are the original bolts when the crank has been dismantled at least once if not twice (UNF bolts and nuts, nuts in the wrong positions and crankpins on the second regrind)?

Was after seeing the picture Timewarp posted a few pages ago of the original bolts vs the AN ones, meant original ones to my bike currently Lab.

Clocked that they had a domed head. Had me assuming the ones that were in it were correct as mine have domed head and were a snug interference fit in the rod ive popped the lads an email about the looseness on the heads within the rod counter bore on the new bolts.

Obviously I'm not experienced enough to know if that would cause an issue or not hence me asking seems to me an interference fit would be better though stop any movement maybe.

Be interesting if the AN new rods are machined to the smaller tolerance of the new bolt heads.

What are you expecting the supplier to say?

My guess is they’re gonna say something like “we’ve sold xxx thousand and had zero failures”.

And my next guess is they’d be telling the truth! I’m pretty sure these bolts are used by messers Hemmings and White...

Personally, I can‘t quite see what the issue is. I see it’s an undersized head, but I’m not seeing why it’s actually a problem. I think grade of materials used and some of the other dimensions are more critical.

But if you’re in doubt, send ‘em back and use RGM one perhaps ?

I just wanted to double check it wasnt a faulty batch Eddie, as the hemmings dvd mentioned you may have to make them fit the rods.

Have had a few parts issues in the past so thought it best to ask you guys before I went blindly fitting them into the engine An like I said I'm still learning hence me asking as I wasn't sure what the critical area fitment wise was.

Yep they were recommended to me to use these ones which is why I bought them.

Just clarifying as Im learning

Are you guys using thread lock on them or not?

norton_rider said:

I just wanted to double check it wasnt a faulty batch Eddie, as the hemmings dvd mentioned you may have to make them fit the rods.

Have had a few parts issues in the past so thought it best to ask you guys before I went blindly fitting them into the engine An like I said I'm still learning hence me asking as I wasn't sure what the critical area fitment wise was.

Yep they were recommended to me to use these ones which is why I bought them.

Just clarifying as Im learning

Are you guys using thread lock on them or not?

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Good points, keep us posted as to their answer won’t you ?

Of course asked what the important areas of fit are etc the difference in the darker coloured area really wanna Learn about all this stuff so I'm knowledgable. Been considering doing an engineering course at the moment find it all fascinating.


I'm sure they are they are fine as they are as you say the legends use them but I just wanna check at this point incase there's an iffy batch. Used to get engineering issue with parts back in print from Heidelberg as with anything in life stuff happens an that was a huge manufacturing company.

I'll let you guys know what I find out.

norton_rider said:

I just wanted to double check it wasnt a faulty batch Eddie, as the hemmings dvd mentioned you may have to make them fit the rods.

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They are all like that (I have 8 of each, RGM and AN)

My original post was regarding the fit of the bolt shank in the rod (Even a OEM bolt head is not a tight fit in the rod otherwise it could clash with the outer corner of the counterbore, it would also risk binding fit of the bolt shank in the rod which is another check anyway

I am sure those AN bolts will be fine but why AN elected to have a bolt commissioned that does not follow the factory drawing (which they have ) is beyond me when RGM could so will assume the AN bolt is made from a deemed close enough blank including footprint.
The RGM bolt has the same head dimensions as the OEM bolt including OD.
What I have found is the AN bolt is riding on the hole edge, as is that would mean the 25 ft/lb nut torque on a steel cap would be trying to seat it via deforming the hole edge.

What it does show, the engines are pretty tough, there was little wrong with UK manufacturing back in the day (They could make a bolt that lasted generations) and even thrown together they generally stay together (with oil pressure)

I am not trying to scare young T J just enlighten him to a few checks and not throw these engines together when a little time now pays off in riding miles.

As far as the rod bolts go, you are mostly looking to verify the head is contact seated in the rod with no binding so when torqued that torque is clamping pressure only and not trying to deform any material in doing so.
Aligning the rod and cap (shank fit to both) and clamping them together.

Edit.
The bolt would be dark (black) all over at forging, the shiny bits are where those shoulders are cylindrical ground to fit the rod and cap, that also includes the under side of the head and the radius from the head under side to the shank.

Just remember, some of the legends recommend not bothering torqueing the Crankshaft bolts just crank them up until you pass wind.
A lot of the checks as you build are free (if you know what to check)

I remember a 1968 Commando build on FB, a very shiny bike when finished, the engine building was frightening but it still ran and most likely will continue to do so for years to come which shows once again they are quite forgiving.

Thanks mate very interesting love learning about this stuff more in depth it all really fascinates me, everything in life is a learning curve I'm still going through mine on Norton's an I'm sure I'll never stop learning ever.

Yeah I guess that's what I've been trying to get at really although I'm probably not typing it out right I'm really enjoying learning from you guys who take the time to reply what to look at what marks tell what stories on parts and stuff like that.

Should be back on assembly tomorrow, going to hit a stop again till I can afford the pistons an new oil pump not going to risk the old pump, but I'm aiming to at least get the Cases together an crank in with her back in the engine stand by the end of the week. Spent 5 hours or so before cleaning up the rods n crankshaft sludge trap and oil ways on the rods n crank make sure they were spotless.


Got some new screws an lock wire for the followers as well so might as well get that done.

What do you guys do regarding the journals on the crank do you polish them lightly with anything or just re assemble as is. Someone did mention it on one of the FB posts but I lost it.

I do not want to bog your thread up (but was 61 last Friday and learned here today there are CCW reamer so learning is a life long thing)

As far as the journals I do as on the previous page but you have to be very careful with any abrasive making sure all traces are removed, safer is engine oil and #2000 sparingly, cleaned then towelling strips with Autosol for a used journal.
I do the last bit even on freshly ground crankshafts.

Thanks mate appreciate the reply knew I'd read it somewhere I'll have a crack at checking the crankshaft end play on re assembly as well was having a brief read about that in the manual before.

I can not remember what the outer race looked like but you look to have two of the early style roller bearings ( I believe your engine would have been the same as my 1971 with a roller bearing on the D/S and a ball bearing on the T/S so controlled end float as stock fitment)

The outer races in your engine cases would need confirmation of an outer lip to contain axial/thrust movement. (Which they probably have)

Time Warp said:

I can not remember what the outer race looked like but you look to have two of the early style roller bearings ( I believe your engine would have been the same as my 1971 with a roller bearing on the D/S and a ball bearing on the T/S so controlled end float as stock fitment)

The outer races in your engine cases would need confirmation of an outer lip to contain axial/thrust movement. (Which they probably have)

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They're RHP 6/MRJA30 Superblends.
Page 9

Hey Tom, did you get any feedback from AN yet on the conrod bolts ?

Still waiting to hear back mate they said they are gonna look onto it an check my order.

Staying patient but itching to get stuck in with not being able to go out on the 650 with this lockdown.

Good to go guys Ashley spent quite a bit of time explaining my questions I had so I understand the purpose of the bolts a hell of a lot better the difference in the size of the head is due to the change being made during the Mk3. Which is what I initially wondered at if there was a year change knew there would be some explanation.

The size of the head bolt was reduced so A/N's are the up to date head version. The spot size is the same on mk3 - pre mk3 rods.

The bolts are forged Ashley did tell me the method for that, an tensile tested as well. We got into some other technical stuff to which was fascinating.

Main thing to watch for is in some circumstances that some head bolts will take a shaving with them increase the stress raiser an split the rod in that place.

The super important bit is the radius of the head under the bolt an the face it meets in the rod. The Torque applied on the bolt is designed to just deform the shells the bolt actually doesn't take the force.

Really really interesting and I learnt a load now I understand the key bits it all makes sense like bits of a jigsaw slotting together never stop learning in life that's for sure so thanks to Ashley taking the time to reply an answer my questions huge help an I can now crack on with the engine rebuild now I understand the difference in the bolts.

And so it begins! 1968 Norton Commando rebuild is a go!

Truly stunning work by the legend Norman White on bringing my 68' frame up to date.


First thing I need to do is repaint the frame the bare metal just has a bit of primer on it to protect it. Waiting on pistons, graphogen assembly compound n the wiring loom showing up before any real work can begin.

Hopefully though I can get some general stuff like the forks back on etc once I've repainted the frame.

One thing worth remembering at this point though is the presky location of the horn connections those need to be done before I put all the battery tray and airbox nightmare back together haha so ideally wanna get my loom ordered tomorrow ready for assembly of the rolling chassis

In other news also got Norman's book its really good! Been reading it all day and learnt absolutely loads!

norton_rider said:

And so it begins! 1968 Norton Commando rebuild is a go!

Truly stunning work by the legend Norman White on bringing my 68' frame up to date.


First thing I need to do is repaint the frame the bare metal just has a bit of primer on it to protect it. Waiting on pistons, graphogen assembly compound n the wiring loom showing up before any real work can begin.

Hopefully though I can get some general stuff like the forks back on etc once I've repainted the frame.

One thing worth remembering at this point though is the presky location of the horn connections those need to be done before I put all the battery tray and airbox nightmare back together haha so ideally wanna get my loom ordered tomorrow ready for assembly of the rolling chassis

In other news also got Norman's book its really good! Been reading it all day and learnt absolutely loads!

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It's often said that a commando is built around the horn
If you're bike is not going to be completely original maybe move the horn elsewhere

Was actually thinking that baz to be honest would make sense, its pretty bang on excluding the frame mod which was done back in the day anyway so might leave it where it is

Need to decide on cam chain tensioners to.