wet sumping

Bernhard · Jun 2, 2012

bill said:
once again you show that you have a reading comprehension problem. NOTHING I said mentioned a flow VOLUME problem but a lose of PRIME issue at the pump. let me state it again, IF the pump get's an air pocket in it, it WILL NOT pull the check valve open and therefor is where the trouble is with this. IT IS ON THE WRONG END as the pressure side is where it is the proper option. Here is another question WHY did Norton and others put there anti sump valve on the PRESSURE side???? Do you think they new better than this BODGE??? the simple but not 100% way is to modify the timing cover by making the feed hole larger and putting a ball and spring on the pump OUTLET. I don't think I can state it in a simpler way. some of us that have experience in the engine rebuilding trade know all about remote oil pumps and having to prime them and pray that they never lose it. the old Buick's, Cadilac's and Ford 292 CID motors were a few that were prone to this issue as the pumps were not submerged in the oil pan and VERY prone to lose prime.

Re; WHY did Norton and others put there anti sump valve on the PRESSURE side????

Please correct me if I am wrong, but is this the reason that my Norton (of which I no longer have) kept wet sumping- because there was a fault on the PRESSURE side :?:

Bernhard · Jun 2, 2012

highdesert said:
Well, I sure don't claim to be an expert on any of this wet sumping.
However, I can say that a year ago a friend had just finished rebuilding his Commando motor
he did have a one way ball/spring valve installed in the oil feed line
He finished installing the motor and started the motor with no advance priming it with oil and only oil in the tank
Yeah, he now knows this was wrong
But, by the time I got to his garage he had just started the motor and had the seat off.
WIthin about 20 seconds we noted oil returning to the tank, and his clear oil lines were full of fresh oil
SO, CLEARLY JUST THE PUMP ONLY MINOR SUCTION WAS ENOUGH TO OPEN THE ONE WAY VALVE AND PERMIT OIL FLOW

OBVIOUSLY, THERE WAS ONLY AIR IN THE PUMP AREA AND IT STILL OPENED THE VALVE

Those who may have a personal opinion otherwise should realize their strident emphatic defense is their opinion only and the volume and assertiveness of their words do NOT "prove" a damn thing.

Could you please clarify; which type of ball valve exactly are we talking about here- the Velo type or…. The on/off tap type that some Norton owners have fitted to their bikes :?:

highdesert · Jun 2, 2012

Could you please clarify; which type of ball valve exactly are we talking about here- the Velo type or…. The on/off tap type that some Norton owners have fitted to their bikes

Bernhard, we are talking about the "velo type" , light gauge spring wire that suction pulls away its ball and permits oil to flow

No one seems to have any good argument against a simple on/off WOG in line lever valve, other than the concern
to remember to open it before starting.

JimC · Jun 2, 2012

Oil sumping will not destroy an engine. A forgotten valve will. IMO, the only thing between the oil tank and the pump should be an oil line. I've seen some of the gyro gear-loose contraptions posted here. I put them all in the category of potential problems. Like there are not enough problems with a Norton.

If oil sumping is a concern to you, send the pump and timing cover to AMR. They put "O" rings around the pump shafts and a check valve in the timing cover for the pump output. No more oil sumping. And you'll never forget to turn it on.

YING · Jun 3, 2012

Has anyone here tried out the AMR upgrade for the wet sumping.? The price is reasonable,just would like some
feed-back,
Thanks,
YING

DogT · Jun 3, 2012

Same here. Wonder if anyone else does it? Fair Spares, Rabers, OB, CNW, Walridge?

I know wet sumping is not a big issue, it never bothered me in the past, but as I get older I get more anal and it's just another excuse for me not to ride if I have to drain the sump because it's been sitting for 3 weeks. Plus I don't like it smoking, it's so clean running now.

Dave
69S

JimC · Jun 3, 2012

YING said:
Has anyone here tried out the AMR upgrade for the wet sumping.? The price is reasonable,just would like some
feed-back,
Thanks,
YING

Yes. +1. With both pump and timing cover mods.

donmeek · Jun 3, 2012

SOMETIMES YOU WONDER IF BY PUTTING YOUR 2 CENTS IN IF YOU ARE JUST WASTING TIME AND EFFORT, AS EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN OPINIONS ABOUT EVERY ISSUE THAT COMES UP ON THIS FORUM. I DON'T THINK ANY KIND OF NAME-CALLING OR DERISION OF ANY SORT HAS ANY PLACE ON THIS FORUM. THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE AN INFORMATION BASED FORUM, NOT A SITE TO VENT YOUR PERSONAL DISLIKES FOR A PERSON OR ISSUE. I REALLY DO WISH Y'ALL WOULD STICK TO WHATEVER THE THREAD WAS ORIGINALLY INTENDED TO BE, AND NOT GO OFF ON EACH OTHER JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE THEIR OPINION ON SOMETHING. WHICH BRINGS ME TO THE WET SUMPING ISSUE. FOR SOME IT IS A BIG PROBLEM, OTHERS, NOT SO MUCH. I HAVE NEVER SEEN A NORTON THAT DIDN'T WET SUMP TO SOME DEGREE. THEY PROBABLY EXIST, BUT I'VE NEVER SEEN ONE. A LONG TIME AGO A VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE NORTON MECHANIC ADVISED ME TO TRY TO LEAVE IT ON THE COMPRESSION STROKE WHEN PARKED FOR A LONG TIME. IT WILL SLOW IT DOWN, NOT STOP IT, AS IT IS THE POSITION OF THE CRANK, NOT THE PISTONS THAT MATTERS. IF YOUR NORTON WET SUMPS TO THE POINT WHERE THE OIL DRAINS TO THE SUMP OVERNIGHT, YOU HAVE AN ISSUE THAT SHOULD BE DEALT WITH. IF IT TAKES A FEW DAYS, RIDE IT MORE, OR IN EITHER CASE GIVE AMR A CALL.

DogT · Jun 6, 2012

I swear, since I put the ball valve on the feed line, my bike no longer leaks sitting in the garage. Could it be less oil in the crank means it is less prone to leak out of the crank flanges?

Used to be it wouldn't leak while riding, like now, but would drip sitting while wet sumped. Now I seem to have no drips.

Dave
69S

1up3down · Jun 6, 2012

I swear, since I put the ball valve on the feed line, my bike no longer leaks sitting in the garage. Could it be less oil in the crank means it is less prone to leak out of the crank flanges?

could be

and also if it does wet sump quite a bit, then the oil in the crank can get to the level of the main seal and then leak oil into the primary on the side stand

mikegray660 · Jun 6, 2012

one of the two times(!) that i had a value fail it WAS exactly like bill says - thankfully i caught mine in time but i was sheetting myself when it happened

OK this is a heated argument - yes, but once you've had it happen and you realize the cure IS worse than the cause - you'll think differently i would hope

P.S.
the other time one failed was when the valve separated (which was prior to the other incident ) and it pissed oil everywhere -great thing when your bombing around a corner - damn near slide off the road and my passenger who like my self was fortunately not seriously hurt more than a scare and some scraped appendages - but sadly she'll will never get on a bike again -

bill said:
every thing is also dependent on the condition of the pump . also I would guess the pump had SOME oil in it from the assembly process. the failure scenario that I have seen is from a hot motor shut down than a restart while still warm. My theory from what I have seen is the hot parts with increased clearance and the thinned oil is what allows the pump to lose prime and not open the valve. NOT from a cold start.

highdesert said:

SO, CLEARLY JUST THE PUMP ONLY MINOR SUCTION WAS ENOUGH TO OPEN THE ONE WAY VALVE AND PERMIT OIL FLOW

OBVIOUSLY, THERE WAS ONLY AIR IN THE PUMP AREA AND IT STILL OPENED THE VALVE

Click to expand...

DogT · Jun 6, 2012

Primary and primary to crank case don't leak. I only seem to have a drip off the very bottom stud on the motor when it does happen. I almost get the feeling like I didn't get enough Hylomar around the very bottom stud flange.

Dave
69S

Bernhard · Jun 7, 2012

highdesert said:
every thing is also dependent on the condition of the pump . also I would guess the pump had SOME oil in it from the assembly process. the failure scenario that I have seen is from a hot motor shut down than a restart while still warm. My theory from what I have seen is the hot parts with increased clearance and the thinned oil is what allows the pump to lose prime and not open the valve. NOT from a cold start.

Click to expand...

nope, you are welcome to re read my post where i clearly state the motor was NOT primed with ANY oil after a complete rebuild

so your "guess" that it had SOME oil, is wrong
edit: I should add that my friends and I are using the CNW valve, which is a VERY light gauge piano wire that needs
VERY little suction to open it, and just starting the motor opened it immediately and fed oil down
SO< maybe one's "experience" with one way valves should include who is the manufacturer, because the build
quality in addition to the lightness of the spring wire is hugely important

Blimey! - I never came across anyone who successfully got the thing to work from dry-it proves one thing –that your feed pipe from the ball bearing to the oil pump was 100% air tight for it to work on a vacuum.
One wonders if Velocette ever tried this method themselves at the factory, but kept pretty quite about it.

wet sumping

Bernhard

Bernhard

highdesert

JimC

YING

Pittsboro,NC

DogT

JimC

donmeek

DogT

1up3down

mikegray660

DogT

Bernhard

Similar threads