wet sumping

Macca, go ahead and run the check valve. There are probably quite a few being run, successfully. My point is, you'll have less oil pressure at idle with the check valve installed. Nortons have very little oil pressure at idle to begin with, when the oil is hot. I'm damn sure not going to do anything that would decrease that pressure at idle.

I've run a CNW check valve for about 1K miles so far with no issues. I don't want to stir up any major controversy, but I have a simple question. Has anyone on this site experienced an engine failure due to oil starvation while running one of these valves?

mgrant said:

Has anyone on this site experienced an engine failure due to oil starvation while running one of these valves?

Click to expand...

I'm not trying to be obtuse here, but why do you ask? Do you have concerns? Personally I wouldn't use one of the automatic valves, but I'm sure plenty of people have with no problems. My plan is to use a manual ball valve with a switch to the ignition. Then I don't have to ask. Not that I'm trying to convince you or anything. It's a personal decision.

Dave
69S

Jeeze, what a thread. I've had my bike for 34 years and it's wet-sumpped forever. I never drain / fill even when the screen is showing at the bottom of the oil tank. Start it up, don't let it sit there idiling...get out of the driveway, and "baby" it below 3K RPM for the first 10 minutes and it'll be OK. Christ...it's not rocket science. To prove my point, please, everyone post about your blown seals you've experienced for not draining before heading out... / .... / ... / .... I only hear Crickets Chirping...thought so.

I've had great luck in positioning the crank throws at TDC when parking my bike. at least 3/4's of the time I have virtually no sumping problem when left even for a couple months. While it is not really a corrective action to the problem, it does make it a lot easier to live with. Can't honestly remember the last time I had to drain the sump out first before riding. And like I said, I rotate through riding all my bikes and it can be 2 months between rides on the Nort.

[I'm not trying to be obtuse here, but why do you ask?

Click to expand...

Just curious, that's all. Before I installed the CNW valve I spoke with Matt at CNW and became comfortable with putting one on my bike. I see a lot of strong opinions about this type of valve, and as it relates to the CNW valve I was just wondering if there's any field data that says it can be a problem. Personally, I'm not concerned and will keep the valve on my bike.

OK, I'll agree. I've never had a problem with the wet sump. When I didn't know about it, I just started it and maybe it smoked a bit, I can't remember. But now the fear of 'wet sumping' has been put in my mind. Still haven't done anything, but I don't like the smoking, so at some point I'm going to install a ball valve and a switch to cut off the ignition, just in case.

Dave
69S

yes I have!!!

mgrant said:

I've run a CNW check valve for about 1K miles so far with no issues. I don't want to stir up any major controversy, but I have a simple question. Has anyone on this site experienced an engine failure due to oil starvation while running one of these valves?

Click to expand...

JimC said:

When I installed a spring loaded check valve in the input to the oil pump the oil pressure at idle was zero. I took it out and threw it under the bench . I even cut a few rounds off the spring before I chucked it. IMO, the only thing between the oil tank and the oil pump should be an oil line.

Click to expand...

Yes, but did you prime the oil pie first BEFORE you started the engine :?: :wink:

macca47 said:

hi guys
ive searched the forum on this subject and found views and experiences vary greatly so to throw it out there three questions
1 does your bike have a wet sumping problem
2 is a anti drain valve a good idea?
3 wet sumping is caused by poor clearances in the supply oil pump?
thanks in advance
cheers 8) 8)

Click to expand...

Just about every bike on this planet that has a gear driven oil pump with a separate oil tank suffers from wet stumping, unless you have some means of preventing it like the Velo 350/500 or a on/off tap.
the on/off tap is probably easiest to fit, until you either forget to turn it on before moving off.

Bernhard said:

JimC said:

When I installed a spring loaded check valve in the input to the oil pump the oil pressure at idle was zero. I took it out and threw it under the bench . I even cut a few rounds off the spring before I chucked it. IMO, the only thing between the oil tank and the oil pump should be an oil line.

Click to expand...

Yes, but did you prime the oil pie first BEFORE you started the engine :?: :wink:

Click to expand...

I will continue to bite my tonge at the ignorance I see printed in this thread. Not to pick on Bernard... but just a convienient point to quote and add a comment.

On my oil pump rig....I installed temporarily, for reasons of test, a vacuum guage on the feed side of the pump to see how much vacuum a wetted pump could pull. On a decent pump it pulled over 20"hg and in fact collapsed the tygon line connecting the 1950's ES2 oil tank through a ball valve to the norton twin case test rig. So if the pump is worth a damn it should easily open a valve claiming to only need a few "hg cracking pressure (vacuum) to open. The entire risk is If you can't open the valve you risk a blow up anyway like the NENO member that will cost him a good part of $1500 for the blown bottom end. Even if you have NO check valve you risk a blow up...
I will retest with a fairly dry pump to see how it does..
I continue to stress the condition of your pump is vital and lack of knowledge is the real gamble you take. I've learned what the pump component defects look like, but testing is what I will now do for all my pumps I intend to reuse on rebuilds. If the price of pumps were more reasonable I could probably see a huge demand by educated norton owners...but approaching $400 is a bit much for me. In the mean time for you gamblers, a pressure guage is my first recommendation and second is to learn how to interpret its information.

I have never had any problems with wet sumping at all with my 850, I have owned it since new 36 years now, still has the orginal oil pump, but mine you I ride it 6 days out of 7, but it did sit unridden for 6 weeks when I fractured my arm, but the oil stayed in the oil tank, I keep hearing about wet sumping, but haven't experanced it, as well I run my engine breather hose straight to a dump bottle, I did a 2,500 mile oil change today and it that time it hasn't used a drop of and there was only fraction of oil in the dump bottle, maybe I have just been lucky with my Norton.

Ashley

Dave you help make my point as ALMOST NO ONE on here has a way to know the condition of there 40 year old oil pump. there in lies the issue unless they either spend the near $400.00 ( which almost no one will ) or send you the pump which is just now an option, it is an expensive crap shoot. like you have posted, just fettling the end clearance is ONLY A SMALL part of where the troubles lie with an old pump and also why I am constantly harping if you use this bodge an oil pressure gauge is a MUST HAVE, and not a bad idea on ANY motor.

dynodave said:

I will continue to bite my tonge at the ignorance I see printed in this thread. Not to pick on Bernard... but just a convienient point to quote and add a comment.

entire risk is If you can't open the valve you risk a blow up anyway like the NENO member that will cost him a good part of $1500 for the blown bottom end. Even if you have NO check valve you risk a blow up...
I will retest with a fairly dry pump to see how it does..
I continue to stress the condition of your pump is vital and lack of knowledge is the real gamble you take. I've learned what the pump component defects look like, but testing is what I will now do for all my pumps I intend to reuse on rebuilds. If the price of pumps were more reasonable I could probably see a huge demand by educated norton owners...but approaching $400 is a bit much for me. In the mean time for you gamblers, a pressure guage is my first recommendation and second is to learn how to interpret its information.

Click to expand...

The oil pump I had was a new pump. I have no idea how much of a vacuum it was able to pull. I did see a drop in oil pressure at idle when I installed the anti-drain check valve. The oil pressure gauge I was using showed zero oil pressure at idle when the oil was at normal operating temperature. Without the valve I had around 5 psi at idle when the oil was at the same temperature. Being that it was a new pump by no way means that it was pulling an optimal vacuum. Was the zero pressure indicated actually zero?. Maybe not. Was there any damage to the engine with the valve installed? Probably not. I, personally, did not like what I saw with the valve installed. So, I took it out and sent the timing cover and oil pump to AMR to have their anti-sumping mod performed. Is it better than the anti-drain check valve? Probably not. The difference now is I still have an indicated pressure on my gauge at idle.

I am too feeble minded to trust myself with any shutoff valve in the oil line to the pump. Any of the fail safe mods are somewhat worrisome, to me. The AMR mod is out of sight, therefore more aesthetically appealing , to me. If the AMR mod were the same price and had the same ease of installation as the check valve, I'm sure most everyone would go the AMR route.

I'm definitely with Bill on the oil pressure gauge. Any engine that depends upon a pressurized oiling system would benefit from an oil pressure gauge or at least a low pressure warning indicator, IMO.

On a decent pump it pulled over 20"hg and in fact collapsed the tygon line connecting the 1950's ES2 oil tank through a ball valve to the norton twin case test rig.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info, Dave.

My questions would be: At what equivalent engine RPM did you get the 20"hg vacuum on your test rig? What was the temperature of the oil in the pump?

I read somewhere that if you position the piston on a single it helps some with wet sumping. Can't remember is on the compression stroke or right after?

I may not have this right, but it was my impression it was the position of the crankshaft. Compression or exhaust stroke being no different. Having the connecting rod journal at the top of the stroke being the key.

I have a ES 500 and read about it. Just can't find article again. What I meant about piston position was in reference to the crank position. The ES 500 really wet sumps... I only ride it several times a month.

mgrant said:

I've run a CNW check valve for about 1K miles so far with no issues. I don't want to stir up any major controversy, but I have a simple question. Has anyone on this site experienced an engine failure due to oil starvation while running one of these valves?

Click to expand...

I know of at least three engine failures in the past year that were most likely a result of the anti-wetsump valve. Even with a good oil pump an air bubble can form in the hose between the pump and the valve. The pump will not be able to draw the valve open when there is air. They work 99% of the time but the 1% when they don't work is catastrophic unless you instal an oil pressure gauge and look at it at the right time.

The position of the crankshaft may make the difference between wet-sumping slowly and wet-sumping quickly. Jim

I think just about any pump will probably generate sufficient vacuum to open the valve.

The problem as Jim (comnoz) points out, is all it would take for an auto-valve to shut off is for air to be drawn into the system somewhere between the valve and the pump as then it wouldn't matter how good the pump vacuum was.
There are at least five potential leakage points I can think of, where air could potentially be drawn into the feed line, so it isn't that the system doesn't work, but that there is a significant risk of the valve closing if air gets into the feed system.