wet sumping
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Bernhard said:
1 inch ball? try 3/8...and the statement velos where not that good the 24 hour 100mph record still stands, :roll:
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john robert bould said:
I've held off jumping in on this Velo bashing thread since I've owned three of the things, and my view of the check valve ball may be a little skewed. I don't know a thing about theory, and what seems like a good or bad idea, nor would I even want to speculate what something cost or how much time Velo engineers spent on this. The facts are Veloce put this in at the factory, and it works pretty well. It bolts up to the bottom of the oil tank, and the spring is so dinky and light, that if the oil pump didn't open it, it must be in big trouble. This is not an aftermarket fix for a Norton problem, it's what Phil Irving and the various engineers at Veloce came up with. I think if you read Velo forums the debate is more likely to be that the balls don't seal up that well. One school of thought is to re-seat them with a hammer, but others warn against that, since it will ruin the knife-edge the ball rests against, and not accomplish a thing. The Velo owner's club has a replacement nitrile ball they sell, that makes a tighter seal. Never tried one. I just make sure my oil feed line is primed, fittings are tight, etc. Never had a damn bit of problem with them. Nothings blown up, etc. I run both of my Commandos with no check valve and have survived many years of not too bad wet-sumping by trying to ride the things when the oil starts to drop in the tank. Got through a whole Nebraska winter with my MKIII riding it at least once a month, running mono 40, and never had it wet sump bad enough to be even remotely concerned. The only thing I've done in the Norton department for wet sumping is to take an old oil tank cap, and rivet an extended dip stick on it. Exactly like the stock one, same marks on it, but longer. If I think things have dropped a bunch, I'll take a quick measurement with that. Ever since I made that many years ago, I don't thing I've drained the sump once for fear of too much oil down below. All the MCs listed on my sig line wet sump a bit. I don't try and over think the situation, theorize about restriction on the Velo, etc. I just take them as they are. Not worried that my Commandos will push the main seal out, or the Velo will blow up. Chances are, it'll be some dolt on a cell phone that does me in, not 50 year old engineering.
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Back in the seventie's "we" spotty kids had no idea that wet sumping was an issue,after all "we" rode the the things every day :!: I used mine each and every day,going to work, collage,girl friends[now ex-wife] and down to the pub on a saturaday dinner/night......then a run out on sunday!...Boy and bike .
Now it's differant for most of us, we have the old "toy" in the garage , weeks,sometimes months unstarted....well i do.
So wet sumping is now an issue, for some but it doesnot bother me, Kick it up and drive off! The oil soons finds it's way back,my old vincent chucked it out of the breather onto the yard,and smoked for a few minute's....thats classic bike's :!:
Any way the sump oil gets thrown around the inside's giving a extra oil splash,soaking the cam/followers ,bores etc better than dry internals...i am in full agreement that all the oil in there could produce a problem [excessive pressure] just wish i could limit it to a pint or so. Anyone made a level float system :lol:
Now it's differant for most of us, we have the old "toy" in the garage , weeks,sometimes months unstarted....well i do.
So wet sumping is now an issue, for some but it doesnot bother me, Kick it up and drive off! The oil soons finds it's way back,my old vincent chucked it out of the breather onto the yard,and smoked for a few minute's....thats classic bike's :!:
Any way the sump oil gets thrown around the inside's giving a extra oil splash,soaking the cam/followers ,bores etc better than dry internals...i am in full agreement that all the oil in there could produce a problem [excessive pressure] just wish i could limit it to a pint or so. Anyone made a level float system :lol:
bill said:
I didn’t say it was a good piece of engineering; it is just one solution to what appears to be a common problem that does not require a rider to remember to turn on an oil tap before riding off. Just like the Norton factory did to mount the whole of the engine, gearbox and swinging arm onto rubber doughnuts to cure a vibration problem.
Even when fitted with a six start oil pump worm drive it must be possible to calculate the oil flow and implement a cure to a wet sumping problem by making a suitable size ball bearing inside an large enough housing that does NOT restrict the oil flow when engine is running in any way.
Yes, Velocette cured this problem over 50 years ago; they also fitted an oil filter which Norton owners are even today fitting to their 25 year old bikes, .....
I will rephrase this last bit as I now see how this can be misinterpreted to...... which manufacturer is backwards here :?:
1 inch ball? try 3/8...and the statement velos where not that good the 24 hour 100mph record still stands, :roll:[/quote]
Hope you will all forgive me as my memory is not that good these days, I couldn’t remember the correct size of the Velos anti drain bearing and it is donkeys years since I last worked on a Velo. :roll:
Yep, that record still stands :!:
Hope you will all forgive me as my memory is not that good these days, I couldn’t remember the correct size of the Velos anti drain bearing and it is donkeys years since I last worked on a Velo. :roll:
Yep, that record still stands :!:
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Mag seal? They are tough little cookie! Never had one blow yet...and not likely as my MK 111 doe'nt have one..my old 64 velo clubman as, so i will keep an eye on her.
Talkin velo's did you know you cannot pressurize the crankcase? There is no seal on the drive side...it's possible to stick a wire into the case through the taper roller main bearing.
It's designed that way, velocette realized the bearing only got oil by allowing the engine to breath via the main bearing open to the outside world.
Thats why the beggers allways filled there primary case!
Worked on them since 1968.
Talkin velo's did you know you cannot pressurize the crankcase? There is no seal on the drive side...it's possible to stick a wire into the case through the taper roller main bearing.
It's designed that way, velocette realized the bearing only got oil by allowing the engine to breath via the main bearing open to the outside world.
Thats why the beggers allways filled there primary case!
Worked on them since 1968.
once again you show that you have a reading comprehension problem. NOTHING I said mentioned a flow VOLUME problem but a lose of PRIME issue at the pump. let me state it again, IF the pump get's an air pocket in it, it WILL NOT pull the check valve open and therefor is where the trouble is with this. IT IS ON THE WRONG END as the pressure side is where it is the proper option. Here is another question WHY did Norton and others put there anti sump valve on the PRESSURE side???? Do you think they new better than this BODGE??? the simple but not 100% way is to modify the timing cover by making the feed hole larger and putting a ball and spring on the pump OUTLET. I don't think I can state it in a simpler way. some of us that have experience in the engine rebuilding trade know all about remote oil pumps and having to prime them and pray that they never lose it. the old Buick's, Cadilac's and Ford 292 CID motors were a few that were prone to this issue as the pumps were not submerged in the oil pan and VERY prone to lose prime.
Bernhard said:
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Well,
I sure don't claim to be an expert on any of this wet sumping.
However, I can say that a year ago a friend had just finished rebuilding his Commando motor
he did have a one way ball/spring valve installed in the oil feed line
He finished installing the motor and started the motor with no advance priming it with oil and only oil in the tank
Yeah, he now knows this was wrong
But, by the time I got to his garage he had just started the motor and had the seat off.
WIthin about 20 seconds we noted oil returning to the tank, and his clear oil lines were full of fresh oil
SO, CLEARLY JUST THE PUMP ONLY MINOR SUCTION WAS ENOUGH TO OPEN THE ONE WAY VALVE AND PERMIT OIL FLOW
OBVIOUSLY, THERE WAS ONLY AIR IN THE PUMP AREA AND IT STILL OPENED THE VALVE
Those who may have a personal opinion otherwise should realize their strident emphatic defense is their opinion only and the volume and assertiveness of their words do NOT "prove" a damn thing.
I sure don't claim to be an expert on any of this wet sumping.
However, I can say that a year ago a friend had just finished rebuilding his Commando motor
he did have a one way ball/spring valve installed in the oil feed line
He finished installing the motor and started the motor with no advance priming it with oil and only oil in the tank
Yeah, he now knows this was wrong
But, by the time I got to his garage he had just started the motor and had the seat off.
WIthin about 20 seconds we noted oil returning to the tank, and his clear oil lines were full of fresh oil
SO, CLEARLY JUST THE PUMP ONLY MINOR SUCTION WAS ENOUGH TO OPEN THE ONE WAY VALVE AND PERMIT OIL FLOW
OBVIOUSLY, THERE WAS ONLY AIR IN THE PUMP AREA AND IT STILL OPENED THE VALVE
Those who may have a personal opinion otherwise should realize their strident emphatic defense is their opinion only and the volume and assertiveness of their words do NOT "prove" a damn thing.
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Gear pumps will dispel air, I have one to pump diesel from a tank, no primeing needed until the "head" gets to high.
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It's all about nothing.
Just kick it over a few times before you switch on the key.
Start 'er up, let 'er smoke a bit, and be on with your ride.
She'll clear.
If you have a reed valve close to the sump, well then, she clears quicker.
Just kick it over a few times before you switch on the key.
Start 'er up, let 'er smoke a bit, and be on with your ride.
She'll clear.
If you have a reed valve close to the sump, well then, she clears quicker.
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highdesert said:
The fact that these auto valves often work perfectly given the right conditions isn't the fundamental issue-or at least I don't think it should be?
In my opinion, it isn't a case of "IF" they work or not, but more a case of: under the wrong conditions there is a considerable chance they will fail.
Agreed, many owners find these automatic valves work, often for years without any apparent problem, and most would likely continue doing so, that is, until such time air is drawn into the system between the valve and the pump-as the valve is entirely dependant on the slight vacuum being maintained in order for it to function so it relies on the feed system remaining 100% air tight between valve and pump. If, for some reason, air enters the system somewhere between the valve and pump then the slight vacuum will be lost-so the auto valve system falls down completely if that happens.
every thing is also dependent on the condition of the pump . also I would guess the pump had SOME oil in it from the assembly process. the failure scenario that I have seen is from a hot motor shut down than a restart while still warm. My theory from what I have seen is the hot parts with increased clearance and the thinned oil is what allows the pump to lose prime and not open the valve. NOT from a cold start.
highdesert said:
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nope, you are welcome to re read my post where i clearly state the motor was NOT primed with ANY oil after a complete rebuild
so your "guess" that it had SOME oil, is wrong
edit: I should add that my friends and I are using the CNW valve, which is a VERY light gauge piano wire that needs
VERY little suction to open it, and just starting the motor opened it immediately and fed oil down
SO< maybe one's "experience" with one way valves should include who is the manufacturer, because the build
quality in addition to the lightness of the spring wire is hugely important
john robert bould said:
Yes, that is true that is the oil breather, which is one of the reasons why I got fed up with the bike –due to the constant oil leaks….from everywhere :!:
P.S.
Correct me if I am wrong ; I seem to remember that the clear plastic oil feed pipe from the tank was about ½ inch internal bore, or was it 7/8 inch :?:
Brithit said:
Your statement about the hammer is also something I have heard, never had to try it myself, so I cannot possibly comment. Methinks that some owners didn’t pay particular attention to the regular oil and filter changes, as any bit of fine grit will leave the ball open when engine is not running.
I had reason to remove my Velo engine at least twice during my ownership and had to re-prime the oil pipe no problem there. BTW I ran my Velo and my Norton with Duckhams 20/50 mutigrade oil, and with regular oil changes always came out of the tank black showing that the oil detergent was working - it certainly left the inside crankcase walls clean, which they weren’t before.
My Norton was very bad at wet sumping, was it because I used mutigrade and not a thick SAE 40 grade oil, I don’t know.
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