The P11 thread

[elefantrider]

What are the differences in the way a P11 is timed versus a Commando?

 

[Rohan]

The Commando has an inbuilt degree scale in the alloy primary cases,
such that it can be strobe timed with the mark on the alt rotor.

P11 doesn't have the degree scale in the alloy cases,
so its a different kettle'o'feesh altogether...

 

[p400]

I looked at all the availability issues and found
5/8 bore on timing degree -http://www.ebay.com/itm/Camshaft-Ca...Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a3b8d8b1e&vxp=mtr
5/8 x 20 nuts - http://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-5-8-x-3-...pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item417381d4af
5/8 x 20 die - http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-8-20-Righ...597?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19edfc3a55
5/8" rod stock - probably Lowes
so this tool, I am proposing, looked quickly fabbed with eBay and Lowes.
I have not seen a crank nut that was not totally thru threaded, but maybe that is my lack of Norton model exposure.
I think 5/8 x 20 is popular on British vintage axle threads as well.
As a matter of fact- the rear axle on a P11 is 5/8 x 20

 

[p400]

I pulled my P11 primary cover to adjust the 428 primary chain tension, as it seemed too loose on the road. Sure enough the tension was too loose......but the main reason for pulling the primary cover was to assess how to fasten a timing wheel to the crank. The Lucas rotor nut looks like it has enough threads to accomplish this task, but only two or three threads.

 

[p400]

Contact breaker set on an early 1967 Norton P11. How do you lock this Lucas dual breaker set unit into full advance for timing?

 

[p400]

Here is P11 timing cover off......contact breaker unit upper left in photo.

 

[jerrykap]

A timing disc something like this....aren't there enough internal threads useable on the end of the rotor nut?

Couple of things:

I've always been able to attach a timing disc using this method. The rotor nut held the disc securely enough for static purposes but I don't recommend strobe timing with this setup.

I think you can lock the auto advance in full advance by using a lock washer instead of a flat washer or just hold it in full advance when you set the timing with the degree wheel.

Also, if you're not getting enough P11 content here, check out the wastebook group Norton P11. It's starting to gain traction and it's quite easy to add photos & files. See it here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/65776936412/?fref=nf

 

[p400]

I removed the Norton P11 Lucas points plate and inspected the ATD. The ATD appears in great shape.
The end of the rotating cam has a visible slot. The whole ATD does not appear to have adequate lubrication.
Slot looks to provide a method of locking in full advance.

 

[Rohan]

Doesn't the list of routine maintenance include lubing the auto advance unit ?

 

[BillT]

Doesn't the list of routine maintenance include lubing the auto advance unit ?

Not in the P11A/G80CS/G85CS operation manual. It only states to inspect the points every 5000 miles, and sparingly lube the point pivots.
More attention is given to magneto maintenance and service, which covers the other two models.

The Commando manual states every 6000 miles for auto advance lube

 

[p400]

Bill and Rohan, I could not find anything either .....but I painfully read each entry in the manual and found on page 53 at the bottom.
Question is - how do you apply a few drops behind base plate?
I assume you pull the points plate ?

 

[p400]

I could not wait for my purchase and pursuit of special tooling for setting up a timing wheel on the outside of the rotor nut.......so I air impacted the rotor nut off quite easily
and this is what was found.
The rotor nut was much shallower than expected.
The crankshaft threads stuck out a suitable distance to attach degree wheel.
Rotor is magnetic so I stuck the item on the rotor for photo display.

 

[p400]

Installed degree wheel with reversed nut . fabbed a pointer out of welding wire. Found TDC by using my existing piston stop .....BUT found I had to use my piston stop on the exhaust stroke, because the lift on the intake valve, the intake valve would hit my piston stop.

 

[elefantrider]

Unrelated to timing but is there any form of cush drive on a P11 and has anyone experience problems due to the lack of it.

 

[texasSlick]

Unrelated to timing but is there any form of cush drive on a P11 and has anyone experience problems due to the lack of it.

I think it uses the same clutch as an Atlas, which has cushions in the hub.

I converted my Atlas to a Cdo clutch (no cush), ran it for about 15K miles with no problems, but this was at an age in my life when I did not race around with others or myself. I understand gearbox failures can occur without any type of cushion in the drive line. I have since gone back to the Atlas clutch.

Slick

 

[p400]

Andover-Norton picture of Atlas/P11 type clutch
8 & 9 are shock rubbers large and small
black specs/flakes in your primary oil tell you the rubbers are coming apart!

 

[BillT]

Yes, cush drive is in the hub of the clutch assembly, as shown above. 3 blades on the hub center which fits on the main shaft, six rubbers (one on each side of each blade). The fat rubbers go on the back (acceleration) side of each blade, the thin rubbers on the front (deceleration) side.

 

[p400]

I static retimed my P11 stock Lucas ignition and find the start is even easier, one kick, with no kick back at all. Retiming moved the advance back about 5-8 degrees. I replaced the 428 primary chain (68 links) and reset the primary and drive chain tension, changed oil, no particles in sump screen filter, some particles on my newly installed oil tank magnetic plug. Tachometer angle drive seems to be pushing its enclosure plug discs out to a dangerous precarious position.....I gave a slight center tap to tach drive plug disc, which is slightly bulged to the outside, to encourage it to expand and hold tight.

 

[texasSlick]

P400 wrote:

"black specs/ flakes in your primary oil tells you the rubbers are coming apart!"

The rubbers are supposed to be "oil proof" neoprene, but oil does deteriorate them. Run Ford ATF in the primary...gives more friction on the clutch plates, and does not make the rubbers gummy. The extra friction means you can back off slightly on the clutch pressure spring nuts a wee bit, and enjoy a lighter clutch pull without clutch slip.

BTW....running with bad rubbers is an invitation to breaking the spyder (part call-out 12). Also, wheel stands break spyders. Basically, this clutch was designed for a 500 cc, upgraded for 600, then 650, and probably pushed past its limits with a 750.

Slick

 

[elefantrider]

very good to know. thanks all