What is the 2020 best solution for the parts in a P11 clutch?

Schwany said:
I remember reading a post in which Andychain said there is a lot of crap about chains. (he left out the "on the internet" part) IWIS chain also comes up a lot in the few posts of his I've read.

Maybe the Reynold chain will fit. If not, I know how to make it fit.
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If you encounter problems with chain width, have a look at IWIS 08B-1 or DID #428.

-Knut
 
Thanks Knut

The Reynold chain came last night, is the right width to get a little clearance in the primary, and it is new old stock. In theory, a better chain than what Reynold sells today. The Reynold chain will probably stretch quick, and I'll be doing some adjusting between rides, but it beats staring at the bike with the primary cover off and no chain at all.

I should have tried, and may still get a standard DID 428 to see what the width is. I tried the RK 428H because I read it fits here, but it doesn't fit my P11. That left me with a bad taste about forum advice, so I started looking for the original chain rather than buying other chains that are supposed to work.

The IWIS chain is probably nice, but a little on the expensive side by the time it gets to Seattle. I was fortunate finding the NOS 1/2 x 5/16 08B Reynold chain in the USA. The seller wasn't gouging on the price like any of the bigger parts dealers here in the USA do.

Gotta get out in the garage, clean the goop off the chain, and get that scooter back together. The sun is out, and it's a great day for a ride.
 
Knut

Good advice, but the Commando clutch few issues to observe don't all apply to the clutch in the P11. Particularly the DynoDave part and not torqueing the clutch nut. Oil from the transmission on the other hand is definitely a potential problem.

I'm not racing the bike, so I can live with whatever happens once I put it back together. The only reason I took the primary cover off is to see if I could stop the oil leaking out on the primary side. Then one thing lead to another, and I thought I'd ask about clutch solutions.

I'm not looking for how to do anything. I'm a delusional master mechanic and tuning whisperer.
 
Schwany said:
Knut

Good advice, but the Commando clutch few issues to observe don't all apply to the clutch in the P11. Particularly the DynoDave part and not torqueing the clutch nut. Oil from the transmission on the other hand is definitely a potential problem.
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How did you derive at a Commando clutch? The 1962 AMC performance clutch was the one fitted to the P11. All I wrote is relevant for this clutch and is mainly based on factory (AMC) service notes.

Not looking for how to do anything?? You brought up the subject of fitting a NEB clutch, alledgedly because the AMC clutch is an old horse not working as it should. However, by 1967 it was far from old and it does work if assembled and tuned correctly.

-Knut
 
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I may well have clouded the issue with a few references to Commando working practices (sprocket removal especially) as it's over twenty years since I worked on a P11. But all errors were eventually acknowledged.....
 
mdt-son said:
How did you derive at a Commando clutch? The 1962 AMC performance clutch was the one fitted to the P11. All I wrote is relevant for this clutch and is mainly based on factory (AMC) service notes.

Not looking for how to do anything?? You brought up the subject of fitting a NEB clutch, alledgedly because the AMC clutch is an old horse not working as it should. However, by 1967 it was far from old and it does work if assembled and tuned correctly.

-Knut
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LOL

If you have installed an NEB clutch in a P11, I'm all ears or eyes for reading. Anything else is unsolicited advice.

I never said my clutch didn't work or I needed help understanding how to install or set it up. That is an inaccurate assumption. I said (more or less) my clutch slipped a little the first time I turned up the wick after the bike sat for 30 years. The clutch worked and was getting better under throttle before I tore into the primary case. I only rode it 6 miles total before I decided the dribbling primary needed attention. The 3 screws holding the inner case against the spacer around the crank weren't that well sealed and I had a home made gasket on it that wasn't working as well as I hoped it would. Too porous a material, and once soaked with warm oil it wept, but I digress.

The clutch center is torqued down to 70 ft lbs on the clutch in my P11 according to the service manual I have and the clutch I have. Your advice said it was not torqued down. That made me think Commando clutch. Main point is that bit of advice is inaccurate for the clutch I have period. The Dyno Dave part does not fit on the clutch in my P11 unless there is more than one version of that sealed nut that I am not aware of.

I'm not using the OEM parts in my clutch. My clutch has Barnett fiber plates, Barnett steels, and Barnett springs in it and works well enough. The NEB clutch is in my opinion (the one opinion that counts) a better design.

Regardless of how my posts are interpreted, I'm not looking for advice on how to turn wrenches. None of the "unsolicited advice" I've gotten here has been particularly useful for the P11. I can appreciate the time it takes to copy it or type it up. I don't think it is that unusual for forum advice to go off the rails on the internet. I'll never understand why people give advice about different hardware than what the OP is using, but I'm use to it. Such is life on the internet.
 
Schwany said:
The clutch center is torqued down to 70 ft lbs on the clutch in my P11 according to the service manual I have and the clutch I have. Your advice said it was not torqued down. Main point is that bit of advice is inaccurate for the clutch I have period.
The Dyno Dave part does not fit on the clutch in my P11 unless there is more than one version of that sealed nut that I am not aware of.
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Well, first of all pardon me for providing P11 factory maintenance information you don't want to know about.

Wrt. torque figures, which service manual are you referring to and which page? There is a specification for the Commando clutch because it has an abutment, but there is no abutment for the clutch and mainshaft specified for the P11, hence no torque figure. You may of course have a non-standard mainshaft fitted to your bike, in which case there wouldn't be a (N-V) service manual available for your combo. 70 ft lbs is certainly wrong for the stock set-up.

Another piece of unsolicited information you may want to skip: Dyno Dave provides two sealed nuts, one for pre-Commando models (incl. the P11) and one for Commando models. I have both versions here.

-Knut
 
The image below shows what is in my P11 primary case. 70 ft lbs is the spec I am using for the nut on this clutch. The clutch shown is what was in the pile of parts when I got the bike. My P11 is more of a hot rod, not a restoration, so having the correct parts was never a concern. If the chains look tight in the pic, it's because they are not adjusted yet. The tangling wiring experiment is not finished either.

The service manual I was able to get in 1974 and still use today is... Haynes Norton Twins 88, 88SS, 99, 99SS, 650, 650SS Atlas, Mercury, 497cc, 597cc, 647cc, 745cc 1957 to 1970. I didn't need anything else. I used my imagination a lot, since the bike was a basket case in boxes when I got it. The Hayes manual does not mention a different clutch or torque specification for the P11. What I have looks exactly like the clutch in the Hayes manual.

The link to the Atlas clutch rod seal is useful unsolicited information. All the info I found on this site prior to seeing the link you provided was centered around the later clutch, so as far as I knew that Atlas clutch rod seal kit did not exist. I didn't bother looking into to it enough. Thanks for the taking to time to point out where to get one.

What is the 2020 best solution for the parts in a P11 clutch?
 
The Hayes manual isn't necessarily an accurate and reliable source of information on all accounts. If your citation is correct, the torque figure contradicts gravely service information issued by the factory. There should be no doubt about precedence of reliable information. Having said that, the mechanical design differences between the Commando and the pre-Commando mainshafts and clutches make the factory information quite evident.

-Knut
 
I haven't been on for a while, so sorry if you've heard some of this before.
Make sure your clutch lever is the correct one. The original should be a Doherty with 7/8" c to c distance between the pivot bolt and cable end. a lot of replacement levers are 1" to 1-1/8". It does make a difference. A nice Venhill cable makes a difference, too.
Adjusting the cable length, so the actuator cam in the gearbox is positioned right helps, as is adjusting the proper gap on the actuator rod. If all is right, lever should have just a little freeplay, and clutch should be a strong two-finger pull.

Also, I had a bad experience with a Renold chain on my P11Ranger. A plate (not the master link) popped off at 80 MPH and blew a chunk out of my primary. Less than 300 miles on the chain. Luckily, nothing else was damaged and I have a great welder. My P11, G15 and G80 all have D.I.D. chains - cheaper and nearly twice the strength.

If you use a Renold, check EVERY link to make sure the pins are properly punched.
 
mdt-son said:
The Hayes manual isn't necessarily an accurate and reliable source of information on all accounts. If your citation is correct, the torque figure contradicts gravely service information issued by the factory. There should be no doubt about precedence of reliable information. Having said that, the mechanical design differences between the Commando and the pre-Commando mainshafts and clutches make the factory information quite evident.

-Knut
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I figured you'd either complain about the way the bike is setup, or about the Haynes manual. So far I'm batting 500.

My guess is there are a lot of pre Commando bikes owned by shade tree tuners like myself with the clutches torqued down to 70 ft lbs or very close to it. Haynes probably sold a lot of those manuals in the USA back in the 1970's and 1980's.

I just looked at the Haynes manual I have for Commandos. I had one for a couple of months. The Haynes manual has that same 70 ft lbs spec in it for the clutch nut, and given how the clutch is designed, I can see why there is so much concern about the torque setting. The Commando clutch is nothing like the clutch I'm using, which should be very obvious from the image I posted. No bearing and circlip at the back of my clutch. I think the clutch I have can take the torque, although it may not be real good for the nut or mating surface for the very heavy lock washer. I don't have any notes written in my Haynes manual about using a different torque spec. Leads me to believe I either forgot to write it down, or it's been torqued down to 70 ft lbs since the 1970's.

As annoying as it is for me to explain myself on the internet all the darn time, I'm glad you got in my face. If I had purchased that NEB clutch, it would have been ruined if torqued down to 70 ft lbs. It has a bearing and circlip in the back like the Commando clutch. I couldn't get a bit of information about it from bikebits, and if it didn't come with any paper instructions, I probably would have screwed it up.

After looking at the Dyno Dave gizmo, I came up with my own concept for a clutch rod seal. It might not do a great job for very long, but it will slow the oil from coming through via the clutch rod, and I can put it together in about 15 minutes. You'd really have a field day belittling it.
 
BillT said:
I haven't been on for a while, so sorry if you've heard some of this before.
Make sure your clutch lever is the correct one. The original should be a Doherty with 7/8" c to c distance between the pivot bolt and cable end. a lot of replacement levers are 1" to 1-1/8". It does make a difference. A nice Venhill cable makes a difference, too.
Adjusting the cable length, so the actuator cam in the gearbox is positioned right helps, as is adjusting the proper gap on the actuator rod. If all is right, lever should have just a little freeplay, and clutch should be a strong two-finger pull.

Also, I had a bad experience with a Renold chain on my P11Ranger. A plate (not the master link) popped off at 80 MPH and blew a chunk out of my primary. Less than 300 miles on the chain. Luckily, nothing else was damaged and I have a great welder. My P11, G15 and G80 all have D.I.D. chains - cheaper and nearly twice the strength.

If you use a Renold, check EVERY link to make sure the pins are properly punched.
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Alrighty then. I've heard versions of your advice in this thread, but I've lost count. ha

1/16th of freeplay at the lever and rod and even lift off the clutch end plate is what I'll be looking for. I'll take a look at the clutch rod lever in the gearbox to see if it is aligned properly. It should be, but I haven't looked for a long time.

I use Magura levers. I won't be changing the levers until they show excessive wear at the pivot, and the clutch side will eventually since the levers are alloy not steel. My front brake activates the brake light, and the mini-brake switch is in the Magura brake lever perch. That is the other reason I'm not changing the levers. The cable on the other hand is old Norton Villiers stock. I've looked around at potential Venhill cable sources, and also read some disturbing comments about the product. People due complain about everything, and many shouldn't own tools, so I don't take the comments too seriously. The design of the Venhill cable sounds a lot better than what I have. I might give the Venhill a shot. Clutch pull on my P11 is more than 2 fingers with the Barnett springs.

Too late for checking the Renold chain. I probably called it a Reynold chain 10 times, oops. I don't think I'll be pulling the chain off and pushing on all the pins. It is definitely an old one. None of the rollers would spin until I ran a heat gun up and down the chain while I had it hanging from a garage joist. That was after I cleaned all the goop off it with a tooth brush in a mineral spirit bath. It's now fully oiled and very smooth operating. If it comes apart at 80 mph, I'll have a heck of a sad story. Those primary cases are impossible to find in reasonable condition for a reasonable price. If my cases get destroyed, I'll have a reasonable excuse to put a belt drive clutch on it.
 
Schwany said:
I figured you'd either complain about the way the bike is setup, or about the Haynes manual. So far I'm batting 500.
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Hi Schwany,

Huh! - I haven't thrown 500 balls at you, have I? ;-)

You do as you please, and I am sorry about your sentiment of annoyance. This being a public site, I feel it's important to pass the correct information - to you _and_ everyone else reading this thread.

Somehow I feel you are missing my point. It isn't the clutch as such, not the nut, and certainly not the lock washer which is at risk here. The sufferer is the mainshaft - you are at risk shearing off the threaded part. And if that hasn't happened yet, it may have suffered enough for a disaster to happen in the future. Guess what happens to your primary if the shaft shears off!
Mainshafts for pre-Commando and Commando models have different design requirements and are not identical !

Wrongdoing of some people is a very poor escuse for one's own action, especielly if it contradicts expert advice and sound thinking.

Another misunderstanding on your part is the bearing of the NEB clutch. As the hub bearing is seated on the clutch centre, torquing the clutch centre will not stress the bearing at all - the hub is positively located by the bearing, the circlip and the clutch centre, which is free floating on the splines of the mainshaft. No worries there.

-Knut
 
I've been doing what internet experts say is the wrong thing to do for years, and doing it successfully.

I'm not worried about the nut or lock washer breaking. The nut and lock washer get a little scratched up from the high torque is what I was referring to. I must not be using enough words to be understood.

I could have torqued the clutch that is installed on my P11 down to 40 ft lbs as is suggested by many, but it's actually working better torqued down to 70 ft lbs. I'm not trying to tell anyone what the right thing to do is. I'm telling a story about what I'm doing.

I do hear what you are telling me, but I'm not concerned about what you or anyone else thinks is sound thinking. I'm sure anyone reading this would follow your advice, and ignore most everything I say. I do what I feel should work. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. I'd be surprised if the mainshaft actually snapped off, but anything is possible.

Considering how hard I beat on the ole P11 back in the 1990's, I'm surprised it didn't grenade then. It sure should have according to experts.
 
Schwany said:
Alrighty then. I've heard versions of your advice in this thread, but I've lost count. ha

1/16th of freeplay at the lever and rod and even lift off the clutch end plate is what I'll be looking for. I'll take a look at the clutch rod lever in the gearbox to see if it is aligned properly. It should be, but I haven't looked for a long time.

I use Magura levers. I won't be changing the levers until they show excessive wear at the pivot, and the clutch side will eventually since the levers are alloy not steel. My front brake activates the brake light, and the mini-brake switch is in the Magura brake lever perch.
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Q , are your "Magura levers" coming with a 7/8 inch distance between the centres of the pivot pin and the clutch nipple? This is VERY inportant.
 
Bernhard said:
Q , are your "Magura levers" coming with a 7/8 inch distance between the centres of the pivot pin and the clutch nipple? This is VERY inportant.
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Nope. 1 3/32nds center to center.

It didn't shift as well as it does now when I had the stock Norton levers on it. I prefer the larger longer throw Magura levers with the little shoe front brake as well. I wouldn't put those little Norton levers back on the bike. Not enough lever.

The clutch is working well now, and the leaky primary cover is not leaking. Much ado about nothing.
 
Schwany said:
Nope. 1 3/32nds center to center.

It didn't shift as well as it does now when I had the stock Norton levers on it. I prefer the larger longer throw Magura levers with the little shoe front brake as well. I wouldn't put those little Norton levers back on the bike. Not enough lever.
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What is the clutch assigotor arm distance distance in the gearbox?
 
Little follow up on using Magura levers.

As alluded to by Bernhard and probably others (thanks for the tip), the pull is excessive at the clutch with the Magura lever when setup up as suggested for the Norton clutch lever. Instead of 1/16th, I use 1/4 inch of free play at the lever. I also don't need to pull the lever all the way to the bar to get good clutch performance. Sounds wrong, but it works for me. I'm quick with the clutch so the additional free play is not detrimental (regardless of what the book says) and makes for a better launch from 1st gear with me at the helm.

Of course the Norton 7/8ths pivot radius lever for the clutch would have been right on the money using the specified 1/16th of lever free play and pulling the lever all the way to the bar, but I'd lose my brake light setup unless I wanted to use two different looking levers.

If I have a point, it would be using aftermarket levers with a greater radius pivot can work if that is what you want to use. I would imagine that is not the case for the majority of members here with restorations.

Anyway, my clutch, which wasn't that bad in the first place, works better after tearing it apart, cleaning it up, and reinstalling it with too much torque. It is very smooth no slip, no drag. Carry on
 
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