What is the 2020 best solution for the parts in a P11 clutch?

Bernard
RGM has a Commando engine/cam sprocket puller. The sprocket on my P11 doesn't have two threaded holes in it. The RGM puller does include a pair of nuts with a 90 degree foot welded to them, but they look kind of wimpy for the engine sprocket.

The clutch doesn't slip all the time. I can goose it pretty good, just not WOT from low RPM. I adjusted the clutch, but it may be on the tight side. My rod probably has very close to zero play. The lever has play, but I don't think the rod really has much. I will be checking that before buttoning it up for sure though.

The clutch center doesn't look that great either. It's probably close to the limit on reuse. I can dress it up some, but it should be replaced.

A potentially quick 3 day clean up, gasket change, and crank seal replacement as turned into a park it and think about it job. Just another fluster cluck like 99% of the stuff I've messed with building a hot rod the last 6 years. Stuff always takes longer than I think it will. Fortunately it's just a hobby. If I were doing it for a living, I would have fired myself.

EstuaryBoy
950 degrees with the heat gun. Ended up bending one of the jaws on the largest junk 3 jaw puller I had. So I messed up 3 cheap pullers so far. The puller was on there while I put heat on it, and I cranked on it just a bit too hard. One thing I have not done is whack a puller with a 5lb single jack. Seems like a bad idea to me. I can't see that being good for the cases or the crank. If I had a magic drill, I'd drill and tap the sprocket so it was like a commando sprocket and make a puller or see if one of my harmonic balancer pullers would work.
 
No...Wasn't suggesting hitting the puller, the idea was the puller keeping the joint under tension then using a drift on the inside edge of the pulley (it is a taper, remember). One smart clout only...
Is 'heat gun' our 'blow torch?' Have to ask 'cos it seems if I asked you for a box wrench you'd pass me the wrong tool :) Butane torch @ 2.6K degrees F 1.4K degrees C
 
Last edited:
A heat gun is a high performance hair dryer. Supposedly will get up to 1200F degrees. I've got a propane torch. Might use that later today just for a change of technique. I found another big junk 2 jaw puller in my garage I can break. Might as well break it.

Didn't mean to suggest you suggested the big hammer. I've read the hammer advice a lot here and elsewhere, so brought it up. I figured somebody would pipe up and say they did it with a big hammer and never had a problem with the engine afterward. I have hit the puller on the side with a small hammer. It chews up the edges of the teeth on the sprocket more than anything else. Would be nice if I could rewind my memory to see how I did it last time I had the motor apart. My rewinder is busted.
 
I've seen people put an impact wrench on crankshaft nuts..... Not on my engine you don't!!!! Can't let that inanimate object win though! Best of luck.....
 
Apologies... My 'rewind' is awry too... Last sprocket I removed was on the Commando, hence the: Inside of' reference.. Atlas is different kettle of fish (or: 'pair of arms' if you're in France!) of course! Old People!!
Though I'd still be inclined to try the: 'short, sharp shock' straight on near the edge of when hot and under tension from the puller,,
 
Last edited:
With tension on the puller, heat the sprocket trying to avoid heating the crankshaft. It is not necessary, and undesriable, to heat the sprocket above 400 F. Then give the sprocket a sharp rap with the handle end of your breaker bar (a hammer is hard to wield in the recess of the primary case, especially with a puller in the way).

A propane or MAP gas torch is better than a heat gun because one can concentrate the heat on the sprocket better with a torch.

I pulled my sprocket a matter of hours ago. It popped right off when I gave it the rap.

Slick
 
Last edited:
Schwany said:
Bernard
RGM has a Commando engine/cam sprocket puller. The sprocket on my P11 doesn't have two threaded holes in it. The RGM puller does include a pair of nuts with a 90 degree foot welded to them, but they look kind of wimpy for the engine sprocket.

The clutch doesn't slip all the time. I can goose it pretty good, just not WOT from low RPM. I adjusted the clutch, but it may be on the tight side. My rod probably has very close to zero play. The lever has play, but I don't think the rod really has much. I will be checking that before buttoning it up for sure though.

The clutch center doesn't look that great either. It's probably close to the limit on reuse. I can dress it up some, but it should be replaced.
Click to expand...

RGM has the Atlas puller, not the one you are referring to.
 
texasSlick said:
With tension on the puller, heat the sprocket trying to avoid heating the crankshaft. It is not necessary, and undesriable, to heat the sprocket above 400 F. Then give the sprocket a sharp rap with the handle end of your breaker bar (a hammer is hard to wield in the recess of the primary case, especially with a puller in the way).

A propane or MAP gas torch is better than a heat gun because one can concentrate the heat on the sprocket better with a torch.

I pulled my sprocket a matter of hours ago. It popped right off when I gave it the rap.

Slick
Click to expand...

I already burned the desirable heat range bridge. The technique you described doesn't work in my garage. I tried that early on with a long aluminum rod (soft drift) and hammer. Since I have to grind down the hook thickness on the pullers I have to get behind the sprocket, they don't hold pressure and start to bend eventually. It's futile with what I have. I will be ordering the Atlas puller. It looks like it will work.
 
So I ordered the Atlas engine sprocket puller, and then thought well maybe one more try with the cheap puller I haven't busted yet.

I heated up the gear with the heat gun, and aligned the big aluminum soft drift so it was pointing forward (counter clockwise gear rotation) on the gear teeth and whacked the drift with a 24 ounce hammer. The gear flew about 2 feet along with the cheap puller I still had on there. Apparently the puller(s) were/was tight enough, and a cheap puller can work.

I'll have the right puller next time though, and a technique that I know works. I have a feeling there will be a next time.

The old clutch did come off a little too easy. Felt like about 35 ft lbs of resistance, and nowhere near 70 ft lbs. I'm thinking that could have been yet another reason why it was slipping under hard acceleration. Might give the old clutch one more chance, before giving up on it.

Now to get that darn skinny crank seal out of there.
 
You hit the teeth!!!!! Ouch! Mind you, before I get my Atlas' and Commandos mixed up again, that 70lb figure is considered OTT by many, but check the archives here and also see if the two are totally similar in that context...
 
EstuaryBoy said:
You hit the teeth!!!!! Ouch! Mind you, before I get my Atlas' and Commandos mixed up again, that 70lb figure is considered OTT by many, but check the archives here and also see if the two are totally similar in that context...
Click to expand...

Agree with EstuaryBoy on both counts!

1) Whack the face of the sprocket, not the teeth
2) 60 ft.lb. is adequate for the AMC clutch, although the acceptable max for that size nut is 70 ft lb. I am chicken to torque it to 70.

The security nut is irrelevant to the clutch slipping. It merely holds the clutch basket on the transmission splines.

Glad you got it off.

BTW .... one of my Dad's Maxims .... "never buy cheap tools, you will pay for them twice, the second time to get one that works!"

Slick
 
The early pre Commando box doesn't seat the clutch against that scrawny little circlip, does it? I think that's why lower values are suggested in that scenario...
 
I would remove the sprocket the same way again if it did not pop off using the puller and heat. Hitting the face of the sprocket did nothing. Hitting the arms on the puller, which was also suggested as a good method earlier, just messed up the teeth on the sprocket. Using the soft aluminum drift aligned in the same orientation the chain runs worked great, and did zero damage to the teeth, or the crank, or any part of the engine. I wish I'd thought of it earlier.

Gotcha on the clutch center nut having nothing to do with the slipping. I looked at the clutch about 10 minutes before logging back in here. Not eve close to having anything to do with it.
 
EstuaryBoy said:
The early pre Commando box doesn't seat the clutch against that scrawny little circlip, does it? I think that's why lower values are suggested in that scenario...
Click to expand...
No circlip on the clutch on the P11. 65 - 70ft lbs is probably fine. Well, it will be for me, not sure about the rest of the world. LOL
 
I'm going to put the old cleaned up clutch back in for a few miles and see how it goes.

Got held up looking for an alternative primary chain. Waste of time all things considered. The 428 chain (recommended here) I tried was too wide and did not clear the inner primary. Decided to bite the bullet and put a frequently not recommended NOS Reynold chain in it. Hope it's not too wide. It had a Diamond primary chain in it that just cleared the inner case when not running. Those seem to be kind of rare for a reasonable price. If the Reynold turns out to be too wide, I'll have to pull the inner primary case off that I got nice and sealed up against the crank case, and reduce the thickness of the spacer behind the inner primary. (The spacer that sits between the inner primary and crank case around the crank output shaft.) Either that or suck it up and go through all the hassle to get a belt drive in there.

British Bike Bits that sells the N.E.B. wet clutch that fits a P11 at a reasonable price apparently don't like answering simple questions. For example, Does the clutch require shimming, or does it bolt right up like the OEM clutch? Basically, I want to get everything I need to install it, before I start. Could be they don't like answering questions about Nortons, or they don't think it is a question worthy of answering. I guess they don't want to sell me one. If they did, they'd at least reply and say they are not aware of any fitment issues. I've had enough of buying aftermarket performance parts that don't really fit after spending 6 years with a retromod muscle car project.

Also rigged up a quick disconnect for the alternator wiring, so I can get the outer primary off faster. Still won't help that much during the balancing act primary case assemble since I have to reach down in there and make the connection, but taking it apart when I don't care about the gasket sealing will be easier. Goofy old motorcycle.
 
Correctly set up I never found the stock clutch to be problematic... Okay I didn't ride in competition or two up but I can't recall it giving any grief.. Again, would use a feeler gauge for getting even lift rather than relying on visual spring screw position, though that may suffice... Hopefully you'll never have to open that case again!!
 
Wasn't it Andychain who stated that Reynolds primary chain was wider on one side a therefore
fitted correctly only one way?
 
My guess is the clutch only slipped a little because I had not started and ridden the bike for 3 decades. I didn't use the spring screw position for initial clutch adjustment back then. I checked for even lift off the outer plate surface like you mentioned. I was not aware of any other way to do it. I did start with the spring hold down flush with the tops of the bolts. Gotta start somewhere.

I remember reading a post in which Andychain said there is a lot of crap about chains. (he left out the "on the internet" part) IWIS chain also comes up a lot in the few posts of his I've read.

Maybe the Reynold chain will fit. If not, I know how to make it fit.
 
The 1962 type AMC performance 5-plate clutch is capable of transmitting torque from the Atlas engine without slip.

There are a few issues to observe:

* Clutch springs may decrease in length due to setting (creep). New clutch springs for the performance clutch shall have a free length of 1-11/16 in. Replace if a creep of 3/16" has occured.
* Plain plates need to be of the dimpled type.
* Put all steel plates together and hold up against light, which will indicate if one or more of the plates are buckled.
* Plain plate warpage limit is merely 0.012 in / 0.3mm . Replace plate if this figure is exceeded.
* Friction plates which have become oil-impregnated should be replaced (the clutch is basically a dry clutch).
* Re-use of friction plates may be possible by covering the plates in an oil-absorping substance (100% cotton is very effective, otherwise use Fuller's earth) for an hour, followed by washing thoroughly in a mild solvent.
* Install clutch plates in the correct order. The single-sided friction plates is installed last with the steel side facing outward.
* Spring cups need to seat properly in the pressure plate. Apply a little grease to the cups upon assembly.
* Springs shall be tensioned so that the spring stud is just flush with the face of the adjusting screw.
* Check that the pressure plate lifts squarily.
* Oil contamination of friction plates may be due to gear oil leaking through the mainshaft. Fitment of Dyno-Dave's special clutch center nut is proposed. Avoid overfilling the primary chaincase. There may be ingress of oil into the primary case if the crancase is left to wet-sump.
* The clutch centre nut should not be torqued, as the clutch is free-floating on the mainshaft splines (no abutment).

-Knut
 
Last edited:
Back
Top