The P11 thread

[BillT]

One further one , on dissassembling my engine (a while ago now), i discovered the attached metal plate, which looks a lot like a prevous owners sins.....(between primary case and crankcase). I have replaced with gaskets but thought i would ask, anyone seen anything similar on a p11 before?

Huw

That's the spacer that fits between the primary and crank case, to get the primary, engine and trans to align. The spacers on the engine plates tend to shift the engine to the right (timing) side and the trans to the left (drive) side. This spacer shifts the primary to match the trans. Without it, there's a good chance to foul the final drive chain on the inner primary.

G15/N15 have that same spacer, cut from plain steel. One of the items I sent to the cad plater when doing my bikes.

In the disassembly pic above, you can see the spacer between the inner and crank case. I had the inner case repaired during the resto (typical result of a broken chain)

 

[CanukNortonNut]

Yes that is part of the bike.
It might be needed to get the correct spacing for the primary assembly. :shock:
It does look like the bolt holes are slightly off. Mine is 5.5" OD 4" ID and 0.210" thick with machined Blanchard surfaces, made of steel.
Cheers,
Thomas
CNN

 

[grandpaul]

Yep, it's an original/required part.

 

[p400]

The rear fender on my P11 was missing. I look at the parts list and see listed -

033138 mudguard - polished alloy
14481 fixing bolts(4) 1/4" x 3/4" cei
000012 fixing bolt washers - (8) 1/4" x 9/16" x .052"
018160 fixing bolt nuts - (4) lock nut 1/4" cei
011094 fixing bolt grommets - (4)

It is the grommets that I am questioning and need help visualizing. Is there a larger hole put in the fender to allow for a stepped or grooved grommet? where is the grommet located...on top of fender or below? what are the dimensions of the original grommets, I see 06-4152 is now a grommet substitute. Most times subs are way off OEM parts dimensions, so a photo of an original install would be nice. Appears lock nuts are used for these four attachment points to allow for reasonable compression of the mounts without crushing all together like you would a split lock installation.


Here is my only example of a possibly an original fender, but off a P11A. I think it shows large, uniform, mount holes.

 

[BillT]

That is definitely an original P11A fender in that picture - I have that fender and I know the bike it came from. The party who sold me the G15 has a P11A and gave me that fender.

P11s came with alloy fenders front and rear. The P11 rear fender is a few inches longer than the P11A, as the front mount is further forward. (P11s have solo seats, P11As have dual seats, and Rangers have longer, narrower dual seats). P11s and P11As have the rear fender end at the cross brace, with the seat bottom molded to fender shape until it meets the wrap-around oil tank. Ranger fenders run under the seat and end at a tab welded at the frame cross piece that runs just ahead of where the oil tank is cut out for the rear tire.

There were so many issues with fatigue cracking on the alloy fenders, that mid-year P11As switched to chrome fenders, which is why the fender in the pic is chrome.

The grommets were used to try to isolate the vibrations and make the fenders last longer. Fit the grommet into the fender hole, then sandwich it between the frame tab and the washer.

Pic of my fender when I got the bike.

 

[hrwat1]

Sorry to dig up a post from a couple of days ago - would anyone have a photo of the assembled front wheel? in particular showing the mounting of the brake anchor on to the wheel. Pretty sure I have it right but just want to check.

Best
Huw

 

[p400]

That is definitely an original P11A fender in that picture - I have that fender and I know the bike it came from. The party who sold me the G15 has a P11A and gave me that fender.
The P11 rear fender is a few inches longer than the P11A, as the front mount is further forward.
Pic of my fender when I got the bike.

Thanks Bill, Good pictures. It looks like the Ranger chrome fender you show was using the same rubber bush mounting, yes?
What diameter are these grommet holes in the P11A alloy fender you show and compare to Ranger chrome fender.....consistent dimension?
I am having difficulty in picking out this grommet detail from period P11 photos....so it is possible the rear mudguard grommet use was introduced after the first batch of P11 were trialed.


Do you have running length dimension on the P11A rear alloy section please?

 

[p400]

Sorry to dig up a post from a couple of days ago - would anyone have a photo of the assembled front wheel? in particular showing the mounting of the brake anchor on to the wheel. Pretty sure I have it right but just want to check. Best Huw

Huw, I see a bolt and washer on my P11
014807 - 3/8 CEI x 5/8 with a rounded head , zinc plated
014119 - 3/8 serrated washer black oxide
then the anchor arm
then into the brake plate "cover plate"

no photo at this time

 

[BillT]

Thanks Bill, Good pictures. It looks like the Ranger chrome fender you show was using the same rubber bush mounting, yes?
What diameter are these grommet holes in the P11A alloy fender you show and compare to Ranger chrome fender.....consistent dimension?
I am having difficulty in picking out this grommet detail from period P11 photos....so it is possible the rear mudguard grommet use was introduced after the first batch of P11 were trialed.


Do you have running length dimension on the P11A rear alloy section please?

Sorry, house is upside down right now and can't get to the fender. Regardless of the year, the rear fender should start about 9 inches past the rear loop and end at the front of the front tabs (pretty much at the rear of the seat on a P11, about 2 inches under the seat on a P11A, and almost midway under the seat to the one front tab on a Ranger.

The back of the fender should end an inch or so below the bottom of the license bracket on a P11 (big black thing, same as an Atlas), or an inch or so below the license plate on a P11A or Ranger (They use the cast aluminum piece with side reflectors)

The fender sides will be rolled and the ends simply cut, with the rear cut running roughly parallel to the ground. Front cut should be perpendicular to the ground on a P11/P11A, and parallel to the ground on a Ranger

Grommet is about 1/2" outer diameter and 1/4" inner. Rather than grommets, I assembled mine with neoprene washers. I didn't know about the grommets until after I finished the bike, but figured I needed to do something to prevent cracking. My bike showed about 16,000 miles on it, and all five mounting holes (Rangers have one more) had radial cracks. The cross brace on my rear loop was replaced with 1/8" steel by the original owner, as the original gage steel had obviously broken off. The original rear fender is still on my bike, cracks welded and rechromed.

These bikes were all built in a period of about 20 months, and problem pieces, like fenders and oil tanks, were changed continuously. I spoke to one owner of an early P11 who had his rear fender replaced a few times and the front once before the dealer switched to chromed steel. He also had his alloy oil tank replaced with steel.

 

[p400]

I found this posting at Walridge about fenders and P11. -
"P11 Rear Fenders Posted on December 16, 2013 by marp2013
The high pipe P11 (Cheetah) and the P11A came mostly originally with a short alloy rear fender which ended right at the back of the seat. In fact the bottom of the seat and the back of the oil tank acted as the rest of the fender on these bikes. Following numerous warranty claims re breakages of the front and rear alloy fender they started issuing chrome plated ones as replacements but again the rear one ended at the back of the seat.
The Norton Ranger came with a different seat – more like that of an N15CS with a grotesque mounting bracket which looked like a high school project. For these bikes there was a full chrome rear fender the front part of which mounted to a bracket behind the swing arm.
We can supply, undrilled, the correctly shaped alloy rear fenders for the P11 & P11A and in fact if customers buy one of the Ranger ones (27″ long) cut it off 18 1/4″ from the rear it will will also be the correct shape for your the P11 & P11A."

I find the information a little confusing, but it implies that a P11 or P11A rear fender are the same dimension for running length at 18.25"
! am guessing that a P11 rear fender starts at the back of the seat and ends at the rear tire. I am not sure a chrome steel fender would be viewed as correct on a P11 as it would have to be matched with a chrome steel front fender, but what do I know.

Bill, The info off the fender you have would be far more useful if it is an original fender. hole dimensions, length, hole positions, etc. I hope you can find it.

 

[Bernhard]

Re; “Following numerous warranty claims re breakages of the front and rear alloy fender”

The deep steel mudguards of the Atlas were also prone to split, you could get a normal full length alloy mudguard and cut it down if the normal one is unavailable.

 

[p400]

My quick dimension check , using the new 18" alloy fender from Baxter, uses about 11" of running length to reach from the forward frame loop back to the middle of the rear frame loop ....so this allows about 6.5 " of tail alloy fender hanging past the rear loop. Anyone have additional information about this P11 fit?
Disturbingly this fit allows a gap between the seat and rear fender.
Thanks Craig
here is a sketch of what I am finding with an 18" alloy rear fender

 

[BillT]

That sounds about right. Looking over some pics I have of hybrids, P11 fenders do appear shorter than P11As and Rangers. As I stated earlier, the fender should extend about an inch past the plate. Mock it up and see how the license bracket lines up - you need a little bit of meat to attach the bracket to the fender.

Look at this pic:

Matchless-badged P11

 

[hrwat1]

Thanks for the reply on the front brake query - I should be able to sort the front as soon as the new studs for the fork tubes arrive.

Back on the oil tank note - which, much swearing and abuse later, is now successfully in and unscratched. I agree that the method that p400 suggested was the best and strongly agree on the masking front - which is what saved me in the end.

The fender discussion is also timely/fascinating, as I am just looking at replacing mine (which are a mess/not right) - most likely from Walridge.

A couple of queries:

-- I can always get a gauge out and check - but I am away from the garage this week - does anyone know the thread and length of the drain plug bolt? (P11) - I can't find a part no. on it in the P11 parts book and the standard Norton/Atlas one does not seem to fit (too fine).

-- has anyone modified their bike to give a better seal around the clutch? (ie to stop oil coming down the shaft and on to the clutch plates) - I know this is sold as a kit in various places, but I am wondering if it is worth the effort or whether simply refreshing the unit and running it as it was is sufficient.

-- aircleaners - original or otherwise, thoughts? Currently, I just have the small 'trumpets' with no filter - while this looks great, it won't do for regular use.

It is now a rush to finish the bike in a month or two so that I can ride it before putting it on a boat to Japan (moving for work).

Huw

 

[p400]

" as soon as the new studs for the fork tubes arrive."Huw

Fill us in on what you have going here - problem, part numbers, vendor
Thanks
Craig

 

[hrwat1]

No problem with the studs - previous owner and time destroyed my earlier ones and I don't have the taps/dies and bits to make them myself (I really need to invest)- on a plane from the UK now and I expect to have them this week. Previously bought parts from the supplier and they have arrived quickly and been bang on - so no worries at this stage. Front is all sorted - I had just forgotten how the lever / anchor related to each other but upon looking at it tonight, it is an easy one.

I am thinking about the fuelling at the moment - am I right that the P11 had a direct flow down from L and R petcock to L and R carby with no interconnection (this is how mine was set up) - as only one side is a 'reserve' petcock. Was thinking of either putting a t-junction in or getting 2 way banjos for the carbs....to allow some reserve.

 

[p400]

I am still researching the Lucas plate bracket , Norton # 029758. I have two possible patterns, but want a owner of an original bracket to photo or trace it as this shows.
Thanks
Craig

 

[BillT]

In reply to an earlier request, I was able to climb into the attic this morning and pull down the fender and fender brace I got from a late, P11/125xxx, P11A owner.

Here's the pic:

This pic has the brace clamped in the proper position.

Remember that the P11A seat is several inches longer and the P11A and Ranger used a different tail assembly, requiring more fender length. Also, the P11 front mount is nearly 3" further forward than the P11A.

Holes for the mounts are 1/2" diameter and the bolts are 1/4", leaving room for a grommet. The rub line near the end of the fender is from the license plate.

 

[worntorn]

I bought some small 650ss /Atlas items yesterday. The seller is too old/crippled up to ride and is getting rid of all his MC parts.
He also has a 69 Norton P11 sitting in the garage, bought it in 77, rebuilt the engine once, parked it about 20 years ago, annual oil down the bores. It is grimy and dusty, but looked pretty good.
He is considering selling but hasn't come up with a price. What is fair market value? Sorry, I don't have photos.
It mainly looks to need a thorough cleaning. Mechanical is unknown, but he said the engine is free and has good compression.
Even the paint looked decent, but had a few small scratches from normal use.

Glen

 

[Paul W]

On the basis that a top notch fully restored P11 in the UK fetches £9K and I have seen higher, then work back restoration costs taking into account maybe an engine rebuild and gearbox? Even in poor conditions they can command decent money. If everything is there i.e. rarer items such as fuel tank and tin ware, side stand etc then go for it as it won't disappoint.
ATB,
Paul.