Split clutch push rod?

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Hi,
Bought a 75 mk2a Commando for good price clutch is heavy, PO had invested in bronze hi-torque plates.
Removed the clutch adjuster to isolate the clutch from operating mechanism still hard in fact now impossible!

Have bought new featherlight clutch cable (think original is too long stretched this is a guess).I have read all about clutch stack height although this has been eliminated by above isolation method I have them out will clean and put back!

Now the question the clutch push rod when removed was 4 3/4" long after speaking to a friend he mentioned some owners use 2 rods with ball bearing in middle so WHY?

Have ordered new pushrod full length and will open gear box to check op mechanism and reset as necessary also route new cable for Smooth action! Sods law dropped adjuster and nut hit my foot shot off in to dark realms of garage :shock: so have ordered them lol!

Also how do you remove tach gauge from bracket not had good look have new cable think old one had broke just inside it and it's a bug*** to see up when in situ!
Cheers
All
BBM
 
Bigbossmonty said:
Bought a 75 mk2a Commando for good price clutch is heavy, PO had invested in bronze hi-torque plates.
Removed the clutch adjuster to isolate the clutch from operating mechanism still hard in fact now impossible!

If the clutch pushrod adjuster is fully backed off, the upper lobe of the clutch operating lever (X) can drop below the ball, if that happens the clutch action will be extremely heavy (see manual Section C34).

Split clutch push rod?


http://www.classicbike.biz/Norton/Repai ... mmando.pdf
Section C34, 20.

I recommend you back the pushrod adjuster off by 1/4 - 1/2 a turn, not 1 turn as stated in the manual with the cable fully slackened, then adjust the cable.
If the clutch action is still heavy after fitting the new cable and setting the lifter mechanism with a new pushrod then the stack height could need adjusting,



Bigbossmonty said:
Now the question the clutch push rod when removed was 4 3/4" long after speaking to a friend he mentioned some owners use 2 rods with ball bearing in middle so WHY?

I think the mod. is usually done to stop gear oil migrating along the pushrod tunnel and contaminating the clutch plates which can cause both slipping and drag.

The 'dynodave' clutch pushrod seal mod. is better.
http://atlanticgreen.com/store.htm


Bigbossmonty said:
Also how do you remove tach gauge from bracket not had good look have new cable think old one had broke just inside it and it's a bug*** to see up when in situ!

Two 2 BA nuts hold the tach to the pod (M8 spanner often fits).
 
Hi LAB,
Thats my plan waiting for new push rod etc will fit new cable with good routing and set pull mechanism inline with cable .Cleaning plates while waiting .
Thanks for the info keep the right side up
John
 
If you split the pushrod and use a bearing you are creating two ends that are not hardened, you will either need to harden or keep an eye on it.
 
Cutting the rod and inserting a ball bearing is done for two possible reasons.

To increase length: that certainly works.

To make the action lighter by reducing friction against the inside of the mainshaft: results are less certain.
 
The idea that it stops the 'pumping of oil'' through to the clutch is flawed - how does one piece of rod know which way to pump the oil when it travels the same distance in each direction when in operation, if anything the ball bearing trick was a solution looking for a problem.
 
Triton Thrasher said:
Cutting the rod and inserting a ball bearing is done for two possible reasons.

To increase length: that certainly works.

To make the action lighter by reducing friction against the inside of the mainshaft: results are less certain.

But can be done as part of this modification: clutch-stack-revisted-t22031-45.html#p288610


There is also a needle roller clutch lifter mod. (as sold by RGM) that uses a ball bearing, roller, and shortened pushrod.

http://www.rgmnorton.co.uk/buy/needle-r ... on_778.htm

http://www.rgmnorton.co.uk/csi/1245184/ ... d_conv.pdf
DETAILS AND FITTING INSTRUCTIONS.
The purpose of the needle roller conversion is to reduce clutch drag, whilst at the same time
helping to eliminate oil contamination which causes both slip and drag.
Clutch drag is reduced in two ways.
Firstly the needle roller bearing reduces friction between the clutch and pushrod.
Secondly the flat area of the mushroom and adjuster assists the clutch pressure plate to lift
squarely.
Oil contamination. There can be a problem with clutches becoming contaminated with gearbox
oil. This is pumped along the mainshaft by the clutch pushrod, segmenting the pushrod helps
to eliminate this.
 
Hi
Managed to get dynodaves article from him as he had removed it from the website.

Cleared up a lot of questions and created interesting points.
I have got clutch rod seal as it's relatively cheap.

It struck me strange and thought it was not the best idea to split the rod and put a ball bearing in the middle to stop oil getting to clutch.

1. Buy putting in the ball bearing any oil getting to it and if got contaminated with dirt would lead to build on actuator side making it restrictive to movement this is only a minor concern but a concern never the less IMHO!

2. A more problem of concern by spitting the rod and introducing the ball the force from the normal push rod is no longer a single linear one for want of a better description,but is directed in multiple forces o/k the major one would be linear but also some vertical and horizontal one minor but would cause the split configuration to push on the sides of the tube containing the rod. The forces are small but there the same!

Normal pushrod. F <-> F
Split pushrod. F/O\F or F\O\F or F\O/F or F/O/F

F= forces at each end normal is linear

O is ball-bearing and \ / are split rods not horizontal hitting sides of tube.


This seems counter intuitive for us owners trying to create a light clutch action.
As anyone cleaned the tube to see if there is any contamination in there.

Even with a seal a blockage could happen it might be 1 in a million and of no concern just my brain thinking out loud but I won't use the spit rod as it seems bad practice.

I will see what's in the tube if anything when I sort it out hopefully

Cheers
BBM
 
Bigbossmonty said:
Hi
Managed to get dynodaves article from him as he had removed it from the website.

Cleared up a lot of questions and created interesting points.
I have got clutch rod seal as it's relatively cheap.

It struck me strange and thought it was not the best idea to split the rod and put a ball bearing in the middle to stop oil getting to clutch.

1. Buy putting in the ball bearing any oil getting to it and if got contaminated with dirt would lead to build on actuator side making it restrictive to movement this is only a minor concern but a concern never the less IMHO!

2. A more problem of concern by spitting the rod and introducing the ball the force from the normal push rod is no longer a single linear one for want of a better description,but is directed in multiple forces o/k the major one would be linear but also some vertical and horizontal one minor but would cause the split configuration to push on the sides of the tube containing the rod. The forces are small but there the same!

Normal pushrod. F <-> F
Split pushrod. F/O\F or F\O\F or F\O/F or F/O/F

F= forces at each end normal is linear

O is ball-bearing and \ / are split rods not horizontal hitting sides of tube.


This seems counter intuitive for us owners trying to create a light clutch action.
As anyone cleaned the tube to see if there is any contamination in there.

Even with a seal a blockage could happen it might be 1 in a million and of no concern just my brain thinking out loud but I won't use the spit rod as it seems bad practice.

I will see what's in the tube if anything when I sort it out hopefully

Cheers
BBM

Another problem with a spit pushrod is that those new ends will not be hardened as required.
 
I did this mod years ago to improve the action of the rod. The idea was that the rod could bow under the pressure and bind against the rough drilled hole in the mainshaft, two short rods should not bow and the ball bearing transmits the pressure. I hardened and tempered the cut ends and its been in there for years, it may slow down oil from migrating down the hole who knows. I fitted a nut with a seal to the end of the mainshaft (supplied by Norvil if I recall correctly) it ate itself and was almost completely gone when I went in there some time later. Just another thing one tries, to improve the Commando experience. You know, cartridge oil filter, electronic ignition, flat slide carbs, three phase electrics, 18" rims, Hydraulic 2LS rear drum brake, led lights, trick fork internals. Jeez I've spent some money over the last 41 years :D
 
Have used this one http://www.britcycle.com/products/040373A.htm for over two years, and it's worked great. I replaced the o-ring last year when swapping to aftermarket plates, but only out of habit, as the clutch was apart at the time. I would be inclined to believe the push rod would be more likely to rub against the inside of the main shaft with a bearing in the middle, as you've effectively added a hinge to the middle of a rod in compression.

Nathan
 

Text has been deleted by the moderator.
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one major reason for heavy clutch lever action on Commandos is because Norton / NVT employed FOUR different versions of the diaphragm spring during Commando production each new one thicker and 'stronger' than the previous one which not only increased the load being applied to the clutch friction interplates which increased the amount of torque the fully engaged clutch would transmit before slip occured in a FAILED effort to cure the very serious clutch slip problem Commandos were plagued with but which also increased the amount of 'grunt' required to operate the clutch lever...... The tale is as follows.......
The ORIGINAL Commando clutch was CORRECTLY designed as a DRY clutch and with its original 0.075 inch thick spring applying approx 380 lbf clamp load to the clutch plates it would NOT suffer slip problems even when the MAXIMUM crank torque output was shoved through it. It was also EASILY operated with no more than two fingers all day long and did not suffer from drag problems either. One early 750 road tester wrote ' I find it incredeble that such a delightfully light and positive clutch could of been ignored by motor cycle manufacturers for so long before being introduced on the Commando '. Clearly he had forgotten the earlier DRY diaphragm spring clutches designed for the Villiers Starmaker motors, single and twin friction plate versions each with slightly different springs the clutches and springs being designed by Mr Peter Senior who was when I first contacted him many years ago the Laycock Engineering of Sheffield Chief Clutch Designer and Engineering Director. The two Starmaker springs being shown on the Laycock Engineering drawing as 83466 Ref 10 and Ref 20. One 0.076 thick and the other 0.073 inch thick both givcing different clamp loads.

The original 0.075 inch thick Commando spring was 83466 Ref 30 and CORRECTLY set up as it was designed to be set up with the clutch fully engaged with new friction plates fitted it applied a clamp load to the plates of approx 380 lbf.
Unfortunately Norton or whatever they were called at the time shoved a designed to be run DRY clutch into an oil bath CHAIN case as Norton had done since introducing their pressed steel oil bath CHAIN case way back in the early 1930s and when oil reaches the friction interfaces of a dry clutch the coefficient of friction acting between them REDUCES to approx 1/3 of its dry value thus the amount of torque the clutch will transmit before slip occurs reduces tro approx 1/3 of its dry value and slip is a BIG problem to those who apply torque to the clutch......I.E. They had a VERY SERIOUS clutch slip problem.
Now they could of put in the manuals as they did in Dommy manuals on the problems pages....... TROUBLE . Slipping clutch. POSSIBLE CAUSE. Oil on Plates. CURE. Dismantle clutch plates and wash in petrol. But they didnt put such advice in the Commando books. They did not even want the public to know they had a slip problem. Unfortunately I do not believe they had anyone who knew anything about clutches because had they of done so they would NOT of done what they did......
They asked Laycock Engineering to make the next batch of diaphragm springs 'stronger' to give a greater clamp load to increase the amount of torque the clutch would transmit before slip occured..... Laycock Engineerting manufactured spring 83466 Ref 40 which were approx 0.080 inch thick. This DOD NOT cure the problem so laycock Engineering were asked to do the trick again and produced spring 83466 Ref 50 which was approx 0.082 inch thick. This DID NOT cure the problem so Laycock Engineering produced yet another version of spring 83466 Ref 60 of approx 0.084 inch thickness which in a correctly set up clutch applied a clamp load of approx 550 lbf and still DID NOT cure the slip problem.
Now if you raise the clamp load you also raise the grunt a rider has to apply to the clutch lever to operate it and this is the MAJOR cause of Commando heavy clutch lever action.

Text deleted .....some even suggest that to make clutch lever acrtion lighter you add a thicker pressure plate...Some even flog the things and have done for years AND without knowing and telling customers that if you fit a 0.050 inch thicker pressure plate to a 0.075 inch thick spring clutch you REDUCE not only the release load required to operate the clutch lever by aroumnd 13 % but also the clamp load by approx 13 % making the clutch even more prone to slip problems!! For a later 0.084 inch thick spring it is aprox 18 %. Some of us have the load / deflection curves for these springs and thus know exactly what effect altering the 'stack heoght' has. When I cobble together a dry running belt driven diaphragm sapring clutch for a friends say T140 or T120 I set up the spring to give the clamp load required to suit the differewnt torque capacity requirements giving the friend nice light easy two finger clutch lever operation....it aint hard to do .....

If yoy actually want to learn how Commando diaphragm spring clutches work go try looking at http://a20b767e.magix.net/.
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Text deleted.
 
I worked out many years ago the problem with Norton clutches slipping was the use of motor oil in the primary, this was over 30 years ago so I started to experiment with lighter oils in the primary to stop the slipping, I got to the stage I was running 2 stroke oil in there as the main reason for oil in the primary was to keep the triplex chain lubed, the 2 stroke oil worked but I had to change it every 500 miles, but it stopped my clutch from slipping, but now run the early Ford transmission oil in it.
My clutch has always been light even after 40 years, I have never had the problem of gear oil getting into my clutch, I don't run a seal at the end of my clutch rod but I have alway put a light coat of grease on the clutch rod, I alway fill my gear box with the right amount of oil, I always use a measuring cup and put in the mount that the book says to use, I found using the filler level cube in the gear box alway put to much oil in the box which in turn make the oil get into the clutch rod shaft which in turn get into the primary, I still to this day do it this way and have never had any problems and after 40 years of hard riding plus burn outs in my younger days I am still running my original clutch, but have replaced the clutch centre once as well as the pressure plate so running the bronze plates, I have never had to restack the plates as the clutch has always worked great, nice and light and always just click into gear and a light click to put it into neutral, it's always adjusted right one finger operation if I wanted to but always use my 4 fingers on the clutch lever, never drags and is great for pulling wheelies if need to do so.
So with little effort you can make your clutch work perfect, just don't over fill your gear box, use early Ford transmission oil in your primary and keep the level between 5 to 7 ounces of oil, do not over fill it it only needs to splash around to lube the chain, it has worked for me and my Norton has been a everyday ride for most of its life with well over 140,000 miles on it and another thing make sure your chains are adjusted right makes a big diffrents.

Ashley
 
A great many years ago I spent an hour or so talking to Mr Phil Heath as I visited his home to drop off a few vintage Norton valves I had 'fallen over' and had no use for and ...so I found a home for them.
I mentioned my Dommy clutch slip problem. Mr Heath informed me that he had been involved with the development of the Norton pressed steel oil bath chain case in the early 1930s......
They placed a designed to be employed DRY clutch within the oil bath CHAIN case. Thyey set the oil level plug very low down so oil at the CORRECT level only just touched the chain creating an oil mist for chain lubrication. They shoved what is shown in the parts books as AN OIL EXCLUDING BAND around the basket to in theory stop oil entering the clutch which wouod result in slip and drag problems. The CORRECT oil to be employed was a straight engine oil of SAE10 or SAE20. They also employed a recently developed Ferodo friction material that would survive with a tad of oil contamination just in case oi reached it. The CORRECT lubrication for the rollers supporting the basket was/ is 'A SMEAR OF ANTI CENTRIFUGAL GREASE' and NOT ******** oil as some idiots tell owners in an effort to kid owners into buying their AT10 belt systems......
In my youth I was taught to use 'thin' SAE 10-30 Castrolite oil which is recommended in my BSA A65 factory workshop manual.
Of the very low oil level and its effects on chain life compared to a drip fed basically dry chain as used previously by Norton Mr Heath commented " It does very little for chain life". Correct lubrication would be SUMP AND PUMP as anyone who has ever seen AND READ AND UNDERSTOOD a Renold design manual will tell you but such a system just like designing a correctly designed WET clutch to place within the oil bath chain case was FAR tooooo expensive and time consuming so they BODGED the job and in all fairness IF you maintain the system correctly as it was originally deasigned to be maintained it works perfectly well for a long time before needing the plates washed in petrol to remove the oil causing slip.
Of course by the time AMC cobbled together the Atlas Mk3 or Commando as it was later named the idiots had totally forgotton the fact that the oil level was to be as designed in the 1030s....and they shoved the oil level plug much toooo highin the Commando oil bath chain case. mr John Nelson whilst I believe Service Manager whilst investigating the serious Commando slip problem cut up a chaincase and inserting some perspex in it had a look at what was happening......The manuals were CHANGED to read and I quote " UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES ALLOW MORE THAN 7 Fl Oz (200cc) OF OIL IN PRIMARY CASE". I had a friend with one of his Commandos still with a chain driven primary measure the oil in it when filled to the level plug...290cc.
People such as Mr Lovell fill their customers Commandos with the bike on its side stand and let the oil drain out till it stops doing so. BUT ONLY FOR THOSE STILL USING A CHAIN as he is fully aware that at!) belts were designed to be run dry!!!!!!!

On Bultacos etc in my youth to stop the very high linear speed primary chains from failing big time, usually on the last lap on the long circuit at Brands Hatch etc, they used VERY thin Redex in the chain cases..... but that was when Barry Sheene was riding his Fathers Bultacos.......
No spell or grammer checks
 
J. M. Leadbeater said:
A great many years ago I spent an hour or so talking to Mr Phil Heath as I visited his home to drop off a few vintage Norton valves I had 'fallen over' and had no use for and ...so I found a home for them.
I mentioned my Dommy clutch slip problem. Mr Heath informed me that he had been involved with the development of the Norton pressed steel oil bath chain case in the early 1930s......

This is the ELEVENTH time we've heard the Phil Heath - oil bath chaincase story from you in under a year so I think this one will have to be the LAST.

J. M. Leadbeater said:
mr John Nelson whilst I believe Service Manager whilst investigating the serious Commando slip problem cut up a chaincase and inserting some perspex in it had a look at what was happening....

In some versions you say it's "Mr John Nelson" whilst in others, it's "Mr John Hudson" and I believe it was John Hudson.
John Nelson was Service manager at Triumph for some time, although later I think, was Service Manager at NVT.
 
Clutch slip! - those bronze plates used on drag bikes, the owner likes them as they never wear out, so can't be that bad. Also the Norton worried well owners over filling the gearbox may explain a lot of issues and the need for a modification to stop the excess oil coming down the clutch pushrod.
 
Madnorton said:
Also the Norton worried well owners over filling the gearbox may explain a lot of issues and the need for a modification to stop the excess oil coming down the clutch pushrod.

You don't think that perhaps having the clutch lifter mechanism next to the open mainshaft bearing could have something to do with oil getting onto the pushrod and entering the mainshaft tunnel?
 
Not really, considering this bearing sees very little lubrication at the height it is to the oil level suggests otherwise - sell enough of them to owners who find that when the inner cover is removed this bearing has suffered through lack of lubrication.
 
Madnorton said:
Not really, considering this bearing sees very little lubrication at the height it is to the oil level suggests otherwise


With shafts and gears flinging oil around, you've got to be kidding!
 
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