A TTi gearbox related query

Molnar is working with TTi on making improvements to the Norton gearboxes based on real world use from customers and his race team. There are probably many things TTi is aware of that they wouldn't admit to. Gotta sell the remaining production runs.

I like the TTi gearbox, but it's not perfect or a wise choice for a P11. Not even close to drop in. Right hand shift boxes for a Commando are probably a little easier to install. My guess is that one of the improvements is going to be making neutral easier to find.

Hindsight says I should have purchased a new early Commando gearbox from AN and transferred the guts into my P11 shell. It would have been drop in and go. Rather than a long beta test.

dobba99 said:

I obtained a small Hooke joint that i cut the internal splines in to suit the cross over shaft and the g/box shaft.

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Poor engineering on the part of TTi industries. The neutral selection should have been adressed too.

How does the Mk3 shift, with the universal joint in place? I was thinking in the way of Triumph, having a U member transmitting the rotation across the clutch wheel, but this entails a lot of additional work, relocation of the cross shaft gear wheel and support, etc., so I will probably go with your solution. A plastic sleeve is advisable to preserve the universal joint's bearings.

- Knut

mdt-son said:

Poor engineering on the part of TTi industries. The neutral selection should have been adressed too.

How does the Mk3 shift, with the universal joint in place? I was thinking in the way of Triumph, having a U member transmitting the rotation across the clutch wheel, but this entails a lot of additional work, relocation of the cross shaft gear wheel and support, etc., so I will probably go with your solution. A plastic sleeve is advisable to preserve the universal joint's bearings.

- Knut

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How does it shift? I don't know yet, when i do find out i will let you know!

o0norton0o said:

...........

I would guess this isn't an issue on a race bike since racers probably start the bike on a roller with the bike in gear and don't need neutral at all... Too bad that you're dealing with a design flaw in something that is an upgrade in every other way...

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How do you figure that?

So, I start my race bike on the rollers, then I warm it up......

Procedure is line up bike with rollers, turn on fuel, turn on chokes, select 2nd, because that works to start it. Roll bike on to rollers. Spin up rollers, dump clutch, start engine, pull in clutch lever, gently tread on gear lever to select neutral. Push the bike off the rollers! When warm turn off chokes (Mikunis).

Even with a warm engine, I will still select neutral before I come off the rollers.

Do I have problems selecting neutral? I keep adjusting the push rod until I don't, but yes, it isn't as easy as it should be, particularly in a box that otherwise shifts very well.

Currently, I don't have a 6mm ball in the push rod. I did, and I will probably go back to that after reading Schwany's experience with it.

SteveA said:

How do you figure that?

So, I start my race bike on the rollers, then I warm it up......

Procedure is line up bike with rollers, turn on fuel, turn on chokes, select 2nd, because that works to start it. Roll bike on to rollers. Spin up rollers, dump clutch, start engine, pull in clutch lever, gently tread on gear lever to select neutral. Push the bike off the rollers! When warm turn off chokes (Mikunis).

Even with a warm engine, I will still select neutral before I come off the rollers.

Do I have problems selecting neutral? I keep adjusting the push rod until I don't, but yes, it isn't as easy as it should be, particularly in a box that otherwise shifts very well.

Currently, I don't have a 6mm ball in the push rod. I did, and I will probably go back to that after reading Schwany's experience with it.

Click to expand...

I switched the ball bearing out for a 6mm x 10mm roller bearing. Since I actually made that roller, I don't know if it will be any better than the ball bearing which based on examination of the parts I removed worked well after getting stuck in another incident of yoyoing backed up traffic. I have to get in a test ride with the roller in there before the weather turns to unpredictable to see how it works.

By the way, getting that ball bearing out turned out to be interesting. The grease I am using for the clutch pushrod parts is for automotive disc brakes. It doesn't lose viscosity from heat or toss off during part rotation like most grease. Basically, the ball bearing was held in there by the grease. I had to use a 1/4" diameter tube connected to an air compressor powered brake bleeder to suck it and the last section of pushrod out. Leaning the bike over didn't move anything in the mainshaft bore at all. I'll have to do the same with the roller when I check for wear.

I'm kind of curious as to what the ideal amount of lift is on a Commando diaphragm spring clutch. I believe I tried a search here once and got nothing.

SteveA said:

How do you figure that?

So, I start my race bike on the rollers, then I warm it up......

Procedure is line up bike with rollers, turn on fuel, turn on chokes, select 2nd, because that works to start it. Roll bike on to rollers. Spin up rollers, dump clutch, start engine, pull in clutch lever, gently tread on gear lever to select neutral. Push the bike off the rollers! When warm turn off chokes (Mikunis).

Even with a warm engine, I will still select neutral before I come off the rollers.

Do I have problems selecting neutral? I keep adjusting the push rod until I don't, but yes, it isn't as easy as it should be, particularly in a box that otherwise shifts very well.

Currently, I don't have a 6mm ball in the push rod. I did, and I will probably go back to that after reading Schwany's experience with it.

Click to expand...

How do I figure what??

All I said was that the box is a total upgrade with the exception of easily finding neutral, which makes the TTi box a difficult box to use in urban stop and go traffic. On a race track, once you get moving, you probably won't need to find neutral at all unless you come in to the pits or possibly between warm up laps and a race start... A hard to find neutral might be annoying on a racetrack, where as it drilled a hole into Schwany's clutch adjuster nut in stop and go traffic... There's a little bit of a difference there, don't ya think?

o0norton0o said:

How do I figure what??

All I said was that the box is a total upgrade with the exception of easily finding neutral, which makes the TTi box a difficult box to use in urban stop and go traffic. On a race track, once you get moving, you probably won't need to find neutral at all unless you come in to the pits or possibly between warm up laps and a race start... A hard to find neutral might be annoying on a racetrack, where as it drilled a hole into Schwany's clutch adjuster nut in stop and go traffic... There's a little bit of a difference there, don't ya think?

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'start the bike on a roller with the bike in gear and don't need neutral at all.'

I was just making the point that I use neutral a lot, possibly more than the average road bike, and it's just as important to me to be able to select it easily.

Racing isn't always about what you do on track, it's mainly about the typically 40 hours of stuff you do for your one hour on track on a race weekend.

You don't go on track with cold oil, and you don't immediately go on track on start up, you go to a holding area, sometimes it seems forever. When you go on track you typically do a sighting lap and pull up on the grid to familiarise yourself with everything including the other riders around you, you select neutral because you don't know how long you will be held, then you get a warm up lap, same drill. Lots of time with the engine running in neutral.

Actually I find neutral selection pretty important, and race use causes the same issue with the clutch actuation, I have changed push rods and adjuster, and the Triumph actuator that TTi uses.

I also calculated the number of race starts I did in my first season with the bike, it's somewhere on this forum. I don't remember the exact number off the top of my head, but one race start is a lot of wear that a road bike should never incur. I have had to replace the friction plates once due to wear.

I would also say that personally I don't think I have put difficult neutral selection down to gearbox design, I put it down to cutch actuation. Once you start combining parts from different sources you will run in to some issues. I happen to have a Norman White clutch rather than a Commando based one. When he made it for me he told me it was the first one he had put on a TTi box. It uses AJS Stormer plates and diaphragm and is smaller and lighter than most. Not enough lift and neutral is a bitch, enough lift and it's fine.

I didn't mean to say that the difficulty finding neutral on a race bike didn't exist. I just thought the difficulty rose to the level of a design flaw for urban stop and go traffic use, where you might have to find neutral every 100 feet and you have impatient people driving cars all around you.

To add, I initially thought the AMC neutral was not easy to find when I first started riding my Norton, but it didn't take too long to get the feel of it. I kind of thought Schwany would ride it for a month and then have developed his feel for it and the difficulty would become less of an issue over time.... but his comments about how difficult it is had me wondering if there was something that could be done to improve it. (Like a little creative skulpting of the quadrant plate or something of that nature)

Schwany said:

I'm kind of curious as to what the ideal amount of lift is on a Commando diaphragm spring clutch. I believe I tried a search here once and got nothing.

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I can say that with my Norman White clutch I found best results with a high lift lever. I have a Domino 33mm pivot/fulcrum, dogleg race item currently fitted, and it is the best I have used.

It is the same as that used on Yamaha TZ race bikes, I bought it from a vendor in Italy, they are expensive.

The other lever that worked reasonably well is an old steel chrome unit, standard 1 1/16" pivot, because the thin steel concave section of the lever will go further back onto the grip!!

If you are using an old 7/8" pivot lever on your P11, that could be part of your issue.

Our race bike contributor from New Zealand (Brooking?) had issues with the TTi and clutch lift using modern handlebar levers and like me had to try a few to get enough lift.

o0norton0o said:

I didn't mean to say that the difficulty finding neutral on a race bike didn't exist. I just thought the difficulty rose to the level of a design flaw for urban stop and go traffic use, where you might have to find neutral every 100 feet and you have impatient people driving cars all around you.

To add, I initially thought the AMC neutral was not easy to find when I first started riding my Norton, but it didn't take too long to get the feel of it. I kind of thought Schwany would ride it for a month and then have developed his feel for it and the difficulty would become less of an issue over time.... but his comments about how difficult it is had me wondering if there was something that could be done to improve it. (Like a little creative skulpting of the quadrant plate or something of that nature)

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One, there is no quadrant plate, it's drum change.

Two, this thread is the first time I have seen any comment that suggests finding neutral on a TTi box is any different to the old AMC design, indeed, most users (racers) say it's the best box they have ever used.

Though, the users I talk to tend to use right gear change, many of Bruce's customers, particularly those who field younger riders, prefer to use his cross over mechanism for left foot change. I feel that might be the area where a review of the design might benefit?

And I have not heard that Suzuki gear change/neutral selection is difficult. The TTi drum change mechanism is (as far as I know) Suzuki in origin!

Three, have you ever had 30 impatient racers riding motorcycles around you when the start lights go out?

The clutch lever I have on my Seeley is the same as on a 450 Ducati.

SteveA said:

I can say that with my Norman White clutch I found best results with a high lift lever. I have a Domino 33mm pivot/fulcrum, dogleg race item currently fitted, and it is the best I have used.

It is the same as that used on Yamaha TZ race bikes, I bought it from a vendor in Italy, they are expensive.

The other lever that worked reasonably well is an old steel chrome unit, standard 1 1/16" pivot, because the thin steel concave section of the lever will go further back onto the grip!!

If you are using an old 7/8" pivot lever on your P11, that could be part of your issue.

Our race bike contributor from New Zealand (Brooking?) had issues with the TTi and clutch lift using modern handlebar levers and like me had to try a few to get enough lift.

Click to expand...

I use Magura dogleg levers for both clutch and brake and have for years. The Magura lever is capable of too much lift, which is part of what ate the clutch adjuster at the clutch when I had to hold the clutch in a lot. I corrected all that. I just wanted to know if there was a Norton spec measurement for lift at the clutch. Probably a clutch dependent number, so I might as well forget about it. Wish I'd never mentioned it. I should know better by now.

The pivot for the Magura levers I use is at 1 3/32" when the pressure plate starts to lift with a starting gap of 1/2" at the lever. Lots of adjustment leeway. If I adjusted the lever for a 1/4" gap the lever has too much lift by the time the lever is at the bar. The levers are the same dogleg type as what came on my 1990 ATK 604. Except the front brake lever had a hydraulic master cylinder perch to support the front disc brake. Useless information that is.

I don't have an issue, but I don't agree that the feel of the neutral shift is suitable for a street bike. It is tolerable and one can get used to it in order to justify paying a small fortune for the gearbox.

acotrel said:

The clutch lever I have on my Seeley is the same as on a 450 Ducati.

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Cool, but I need my rear brake light to work off the front brake lever, and the Magura brake lever supports use of a small brake switch.

The 6mm x 10mm roller between two sections of clutch pushrod is working. Everything related to using the clutch and shifting is smooth running. 275mm overall length of multi-piece clutch pushrod with a Manx length mainshaft in the TTi 5-speed gearbox.

SteveA said:

How do you figure that?

So, I start my race bike on the rollers, then I warm it up......

Procedure is line up bike with rollers, turn on fuel, turn on chokes, select 2nd, because that works to start it. Roll bike on to rollers. Spin up rollers, dump clutch, start engine, pull in clutch lever, gently tread on gear lever to select neutral. Push the bike off the rollers! When warm turn off chokes (Mikunis).

Even with a warm engine, I will still select neutral before I come off the rollers.

Do I have problems selecting neutral? I keep adjusting the push rod until I don't, but yes, it isn't as easy as it should be, particularly in a box that otherwise shifts very well.

Currently, I don't have a 6mm ball in the push rod. I did, and I will probably go back to that after reading Schwany's experience with it.

Click to expand...

And when I rode the bike at Carole last month......

No problem selecting neutral, but......Oh Dear.....real problems selecting first when changing down all the way from 5th for the two hairpins.....most times I ended up in neutral.

I thought the problem was clutch related, and I still do. I'm working on that. But I also decided to strip out the box after finding metal shards on the magnetic plug. The shards look like small parts of selector dog from the gear wheels. I need to do more checking on that.

I have been in touch with TTi, I wanted wear limit data on the selectors. They tell me that the selector pins into the drum tend to wear rather than the fork ends. Measuring them, yes they do. I don't think I am quite to their quoted limits, but there is definitely wear.

This is a race box and my comments are not a criticism of it, or it's design. I bought it used, it had done a season in a sidecar! And I have used it for several seasons, so what I am finding is not surprising. Is it the source of my problems?

Will keep on working on that, including the clutch, but in truth I won't know 100% till next year!

In the meantime, expect me to be spending some money in NZ dollars.

Thanks for that info.

I can downshift into 1st for 90 degree corner turns on the street. Smooth and not even a crunch at street speeds. So far on a low mileage box used on the street anyway...

I've only found dark fine metal on the drain magnet. When I start seeing chunks of metal on the magnet, I guess I'll be getting inside the box.

For the most part finding neutral is not an issue anymore with the multipart clutch pushrod. Better feel at the toe.

Schwany said:

Thanks for that info.

I can downshift into 1st for 90 degree corner turns on the street. Smooth and not even a crunch at street speeds. So far on a low mileage box used on the street anyway...

I've only found dark fine metal on the drain magnet. When I start seeing chunks of metal on the magnet, I guess I'll be getting inside the box.

For the most part finding neutral is not an issue anymore with the multipart clutch pushrod. Better feel at the toe.

Click to expand...

SteveA said:

View attachment 116598

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Ouch!! Crunch time

With the older type multiplate clutches, if you hold the clutch in, and use the kickstart to rotate the inside of the clutch - sometimes you can see the steel plates moving sideways in relation to the direction of rotation. If the clutch drags because of warped plates, first can be difficult to engage.
Some people hold their clutch in longer than is necessary, causing excessive heat. When I stop, I select neutral. First gear is the one which needs to be readily available . You need to be able to select it and go.