A TTi gearbox related query

Mike40M said:
My guess is that the split rod, ball or roller fix came in late fifties when serious racers fitted fairings. Gearing for the higher top speed made first gear higher. Making it necessary to slip clutch in the hairpins.
Then came the 5-speed gearboxes adding a lower first gear. The 4 higher gears was already close ratio to match the short usable power band.
The 5-speed TTI has good gear spacing, not too high rev drop going from first to second and gradually less drop shifting up. Especially with the low first option. To handle increasing air resistance. 6-speed TTI a bit more random.
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Yeah, I tend to be a little dramatic. Truth is I'll do whatever it takes to make the old thing work with the TTi 5-speed. I was having some fun in the winding backroads before I hit all that traffic.

I will be asking Molnar about an NEB clutch solution soon I think. Harder pull at the lever, but they probably work really well with the TTi gearbox.
 
Mike40M said:
I use 2 rods, about equal length and a 6mm ball bearing in between. Had that practice since 1967 when a friend told me. Common race practice. 6mm silver steel (drill rod in US) perfectly fine if ends hardened. Hardening the whole rod might bend it. Of course ends must be perfectly flat. A thin coat of moly grease does no harm.
To me it sounds that you might use wrong method for adjuster screw and lever adjuster.
Early problem I had with the TTI was that centre nut loosened resulting in clutch not working. Lever to handle bar. Recommended nut torque not enough. Tightened till mouth tasted s**t.
Don't know what material in the adjuster screw. If case hardened shortening seems a bad idea.
I'm not fond of using the clutch. Though it takes me a bit more time finding neutral on the TTI than on an AMC box. Somewhat compensated by upshifting without clutch.
By the way, is a rod seal really necessary?
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ludwig

Post in thread 'Clutch rod seal'

robs ss said:
This is @ludwig 's eloquent solution to that problem - made from a 6mm valve stem and o-ring.
It obviously would need the clutch pushrod to be shortened. (It is one of the those things on our Nortons that is metric - 6mm not 1/4")
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robs ss:
not 6 mm . Valve stems are 8 mm.
The clutch rod is 6 mm ( or 1/4" ?) and is a sloppy fit.
The hole in the mainshaft is irregular, but varies between 6.5 and 6.9 mm.
In fact , you don't even need the mod for the O-ring ( or a bearing ball) , if you can find an old 6.8 mm drill bit.
6.8 is a common size (in a metric world) because it is the...
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Does Ludwig have a TTi 5-speed installed on his pre-Commando Norton?

Already discussed the clutch rod seal with a TTi gearbox in another thread. I quit using the RGM clutch rod seal with the TTi gearbox after it backed out a while ago. Not necessary with the TTi gearbox.
 
The pushrod did not come with my TTI box, and I did not expect it. At the clutch end I have the bit out of a Jawa speedway bike, it is a piece of rod with a disc on the end for the adjuster in the clutch pressure plate to sit against. The pushrod is a piece of 1/4 inch mild steel - I filed the ends and did not harden them - it sits inside the middle of the mainshaft. With a race bike, we do not usually sit for long holding the clutch. For a road bike, I would harden the ends of the pushrod. Just heat it until it is red and dip it in oil. I don't know what that bolt in the photo is. I don't use nuts or bolts which are that big. I would not put a ball in the middle of the mainshaft. When you disassemblev the box, it might end-up where it should not be.
 
I'm good
Really

I did decide not to do the two piece rod and ball bearing setup until I find a 6mm diameter magnet 6 inches long so I can get the first piece in out. FILO

If I could delete this entire post so you guyz wouldn't have to waste your bandwidth I would. I got the answer I wanted from Nigel in post #2. lol
 
Schwany said:
I'm good
Really

I did decide not to do the two piece rod and ball bearing setup until I find a 6mm diameter magnet 6 inches long so I can get the first piece in out. FILO

If I could delete this entire post so you guyz wouldn't have to waste your bandwidth I would. I got the answer I wanted from Nigel in post #2. lol
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To get the rod out, lay the bike on it's side and it should drop out.
 
acotrel said:
To get the rod out, lay the bike on it's side and it should drop out.
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Obviously, that should work with a perfect gearbox for street use. The clutch rod bore in the 5-speed I have is very rough. The full length rod was stuck in there, which is what prompted my question in the first place. If the same thing happened again for whatever reason with two pieces, I'd never get a shorter length out without taking the gearbox apart. My magnet idea wouldn't help either.

Best thing to do "for me" is avoid traffic and avoid holding in the clutch in while in gear at stops with a TTi gearbox.
 
Schwany said:
Obviously, that should work with a perfect gearbox for street use. The clutch rod bore in the 5-speed I have is very rough. The full length rod was stuck in there, which is what prompted my question in the first place. If the same thing happened again for whatever reason with two pieces, I'd never get a shorter length out without taking the gearbox apart. My magnet idea wouldn't help either.

Best thing to do "for me" is avoid traffic and avoid holding in the clutch in while in gear at stops with a TTi gearbox.
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Any chance the rod was jamming up in operation and not coming off the adjuster bolt/nut? That could possibly explain the wear on that end of the rod.
 
Deets55 said:
Any chance the rod was jamming up in operation and not coming off the adjuster bolt/nut? That could possibly explain the wear on that end of the rod.
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The rod easily moves back into the bore all the way, but hung up when about 5/8" was pulled outward. Always went back without obstruction. It is out now, and another one is in its place. Slightly different adjustment strategy to use less of the big dogleg Magura lever. It'll work or it won't.

Something I don't understand without an exploded view of the gearbox is happening in there, but it is pointless to guess about it. If I cared enough right now, I'd tear it apart and see what is going on in there. Winter project maybe. I promise I will not start another thread about what I find. :)
 
As Ludwig said , the mainshaft bore is pretty rough , that-s why he polished it inside and of course fit the 6mm rod ( on it's own way as usual ) , check his post about it .
 
marinatlas said:
As Ludwig said , the mainshaft bore is pretty rough , that-s why he polished it inside and of course fit the 6mm rod ( on it's own way as usual ) , check his post about it .
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OK, I'm having difficulty seeing any relevance since there is no mention of a TTi gearbox in the thread you pointed to. I don't need a rod seal with the TTi gearbox. The AMC gearbox mainshaft bore is smoother than the one in the TTi gearbox I have. I said that just now. :)
 
Plan C You gonna get a kick out of this nonsense. Don't try it at home kids.

I'm making a few 1/2-20 x 1" adjuster stubs and hardening them. I plan to carry them in my backpack tool and spares kit along with the wrenches and screw driver to make an adjuster change and readjust the clutch, if necessary, when the clutch goes out of adjustment magically due to some unusual wear on the adjuster. I had to modify my outer primary cover to gain access to the 3/4" lock nut on the adjuster. The mainshaft on the TTi gearbox does not line up anywhere near the center of the clutch adjuster inspection cap, so I had to grind a circular section out of the threads for the cap. Use your imagination. That's what I do 24/7.

Also went to about 1/2" of free play at the lever before the clutch push rod starts moving the pressure plate to compensate for the long lever throw. I like pulling the lever to the bar. Tough guy and all that. None of this is going to make sense to you guys that don't have my Magura levers, a Manx mainshaft in a TTi 5-speed gearbox, and an RGM belt clutch.

Plus this is on a P11, and things are a little different on a P11, especially mine.

Oh I could have too long a push rod as well. I remember that Molnar forgot I was working with a P11. He may have given me the clutch push rod length for a Commando. Maybe I should ask him if 275mm is the right length for a Max mainshaft. Time for a tipple.
 
FYI my Manx with an Manx clutch has rods +ball combined length 260 mm. The Manx clutch has fewer plates than other Norton clutches so very small lift needed for clutch to disengage. Probably the right mainshaft as very little shims needed behind engine sprocket for chain to line. The Manx had laydown gearboxes long after the AMC was introduced. I have even more than 1/2" lever play. The TTI Triumph type mechanism lifts very much so with the original clipons with welded levers a very hard to pull clutch.
You had never explicitly said that you start with lots of lever play and turn adjuster on the cluch to a bit of play of the rod. So rod in contact with adjuster only when using the clutch.
Then adjust lever to desired play.
 
Mike40M said:
FYI my Manx with an Manx clutch has rods +ball combined length 260 mm. The Manx clutch has fewer plates than other Norton clutches so very small lift needed for clutch to disengage. Probably the right mainshaft as very little shims needed behind engine sprocket for chain to line. The Manx had laydown gearboxes long after the AMC was introduced. I have even more than 1/2" lever play. The TTI Triumph type mechanism lifts very much so with the original clipons with welded levers a very hard to pull clutch.
You had never explicitly said that you start with lots of lever play and turn adjuster on the cluch to a bit of play of the rod. So rod in contact with adjuster only when using the clutch.
Then adjust lever to desired play.
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Actually, I did say somewhere in my mess of replies that I start clutch setup with the lever adjuster entirely backed off. I also have a cable adjuster at the gearbox like most TTi gearboxes should IMO which is also backed off when I start setup of the clutch.

I also know how to tie my shoes laces. I'm a genius. 🤣
 
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Schwany said:
I also know how to tie my shoes laces. I'm a genius. 🤣
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A true genius knows when to ask for advice. Just tried to help you figure out why that unusual adjuster wear occurred. Ruling out all thinkable and unthinkable reasons it happened.
Guess you shall avoid traffic jams.
 
Mike40M said:
A true genius knows when to ask for advice. Just tried to help you figure out why that unusual adjuster wear occurred. Ruling out all thinkable and unthinkable reasons it happened.
Guess you shall avoid traffic jams.
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Avoiding traffic jams would be ideal, but I think a ball bearing in the mainshaft bore would fix things for the street. As I may or may not have mentioned, I did not have this grinding situation on the adjuster on the RGM clutch with the AMC gearbox that has the ball bearing in the pushrod operating lever housing touching the clutch pushrod. The clutch pushrod spins with the clutch adjuster in that scenario and does not lock up and grind on the adjuster. By the way, I adjusted the clutch the same way I always do when using the AMC gearbox. Doing it for 50 years on the same motorcycle, I think I have a handle on it.

If I actually thought I needed advice, I'd ask for it. Doesn't make me a genius though. Far from it. Old Nortons are simple motorcycles. All I wanted to know was if a ball bearing might have been shipped in the TTi gearbox mainshaft bore and I lost it when I had the gearbox on the bench before I installed it. The thread went way off the rails early on, which was interesting, but not really on topic.

So for a street bike I think a two piece shaft with a ball bearing is going to be helpful with the TTi gearbox. I could be wrong and usually am on this website, not so much in the real world.
 
The fact that you post the issue here makes it a collective learning curve issue for everyone who follows your path and swaps to a TTI box. If you find the cause, we all learn something about those boxes. If you fashion a solution, then the issue is known and has a solution. I can't speak for anyone else, but that's why I am interested in threads like this, where you (in this case) are outside the box (pun) of stock parts, and troubleshooting the problem. In your case, the likelihood of someone having all the same parts combination as you (P11, TTI, not sure what clutch) might be remote, but the symptom of the worn rod or adjuster is definitely something I've wondered about since the adjuster end of the pushrod will heat up from the clutch, dry out and eventually be metal against metal even if you put a dab of grease on the tip at installation...

So,.. In MY unsolicited opinion, I think you must be right about the cause. You "stop and go'ed" your adjuster to death... It just doesn't seem possible that the rod could dig that deep into the adjuster from being just a tiny bit too tight. That damage had to happen under rod tension to keep digging deep. So, that kind of means that in stop and go traffic you will have to take it out of gear to avoid that issue, rather than ride the clutch. Granted, that means a lot more foot action shifting in an out of gear, so you are going to have to learn the feel of finding neutral comfortably.

I bet if you didn't do the stop and go while holding the clutch, you wouldn't have had any issues, so I wonder if the ball bearing/split rod will make any difference. You could do the ball bearing trick and grease the ball so the grease stays inside the shaft so it might actually help. Are you planning on trying the ball bearing?? We unsolicited opinion guys want to know.... 🤣
 
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Just a historic note. Pre AMC gearboxes, Dolls head, Upright and Laydown all had a screw type actuator. I'm not 100% sure of the Laydown, but at least Dolls head and Upright had two part pushrods.
 
o0norton0o said:
The fact that you post the issue here makes it a collective learning curve issue for everyone who follows your path and swaps to a TTI box. If you find the cause, we all learn something about those boxes. If you fashion a solution, then the issue is known and has a solution. I can't speak for anyone else, but that's why I am interested in threads like this, where you (in this case) are outside the box (pun) of stock parts, and troubleshooting the problem. In your case, the likelihood of someone having all the same parts combination as you (P11, TTI, not sure what clutch) might be remote, but the symptom of the worn rod or adjuster is definitely something I've wondered about since the adjuster end of the pushrod will heat up from the clutch, dry out and eventually be metal against metal even if you put a dab of grease on the tip at installation...

So,.. In MY unsolicited opinion, I think you must be right about the cause. You "stop and go'ed" your adjuster to death... It just doesn't seem possible that the rod could dig that deep into the adjuster from being just a tiny bit too tight. That damage had to happen under rod tension to keep digging deep. So, that kind of means that in stop and go traffic you will have to take it out of gear to avoid that issue, rather than ride the clutch. Granted, that means a lot more foot action shifting in an out of gear, so you are going to have to learn the feel of finding neutral comfortably.

I bet if you didn't do the stop and go while holding the clutch, you wouldn't have had any issues, so I wonder if the ball bearing/split rod will make any difference. You could do the ball bearing trick and grease the ball so the grease stays inside the shaft so it might actually help. Are you planning on trying the ball bearing?? We unsolicited opinion guys want to know.... 🤣
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RGM clutch for now.

Educational might be a stretch unless it is regarding things not to do. ;)

The TTi gearbox as nice as it is gear ratio wise provides no feedback at the foot lever for neutral gear. It just kind of slides in and the only way to know if it is in Neutral is let the clutch back out to see if the box is not in gear. Can be a stall if not really quick and careful with the clutch. And if missed first time, it is a 99% guaranteed crash into 1st trying again. So indeed I got in a situation where I had to use and hold the clutch way too much in gear in high ambient temp stop and go traffic. Getting into Neutral gear is the one thing I definitely miss about the AMC gearbox. My AMC box gave good feedback with the detent ball.

I'll keep the light on and report back if the 2 piece shaft and ball is successful at reducing wear on the clutch adjuster face to normal. My brain says it has to be an improvement as long as the shafts stay in line and don't do weird stuff inside the bore. They should not, but who knows.

To add to my penchant for falling outside of the box I am currently trying a Permatex synthetic high temp grease made for disc brake components. Good to 3000F. The stuff is like purple glue. Probably a potential mistake, but life is short. Gotta make it interesting.

I went for a short test ride yesterday with a resurfaced clutch adjuster, a solid shaft, and the purple goop. Everything felt good, but it was a short ride. I'll be looking at the adjuster later today or tomorrow when I make the switch to the two piece and ball setup.
 
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