A TTi gearbox related query

On a Jawa speedway bike -the bit that the hardened adjuster in the middle of the clutch sits against is a one-piece hardened steel witches-hat of about 1 inch diameter, and 1/8 inch thick, with a 1/4 inch rod protruding, which fits into the mainshaft. Use a one-piece rod from the witches hat to actuator at the cable end. If you want to get flash - harden the ends of the main rod, but it probably keeps pace with the main-shaft, and the witches-hat I think there is a bearing at the cable end.

acotrel said:

On a Jawa speedway bike -the bit that the hardened adjuster in the middle of the clutch sits against is a one-piece hardened steel witches-hat of about 1 inch diameter, and 1/8 inch thick, with a 1/4 inch rod protruding, which fits into the mainshaft. Use a one-piece rod from the witches hat to actuator at the cable end. If you want to get flash - harden the ends of the main rod, but it probably keeps pace with the main-shaft, and the witches-hat I think there is a bearing at the cable end.

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On speedway the problem is heating of clutch plates. From starting the engine until the tapes goes up. After the 30 metre line clutch shall not slip before finish line.
Speedway clutches have a conventional design. Pressure plate always rotates same speed as shaft. Lever adjuster screw with ball point to reduce friction. Rod. Ball. Mushroom rod with bearing.
Mushroom to ensure pressure plate perpendicular to shaft. To minimize influence from different spring pressure. Everything possible done to reduce friction. Friction means wear.
So basically a refined version of a nineteen thirties Norton.
This thread is about a Commando clutch adjuster wear on a road bike. Where clutch adjuster always rotates with approx. half engine speed.

Schwany said:

...... I'm currently taking care of a very long overdue HoneyDo. Wife has been waiting patiently 10 years for me to get her car in the garage.

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Dang it Schwany 10 yrs... and I thought I had a patient wife! ... How much room to ya gotta make, I mean how big is her car ...never mind. Sorry to go off topic. Better get busy mister.

cjandme said:

Dang it Schwany 10 yrs... and I thought I had a patient wife! ... How much room to ya gotta make, I mean how big is her car ...never mind. Sorry to go off topic. Better get busy mister.

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Enough room for a Prius and space to open the driver's side door. It's in there now. I have a 2 car garage and I need a 4 car garage, or barn/workshop. My Norton is trapped in there currently.

The two piece clutch rod with 6mm ball bearing between them seems to be working well after a 140 mile ride in mixed HWY, town, and rural road traffic. I did not have to deal with miles of backed up traffic though. I'll inspect the face of the adjuster, rod tips, and ball bearing for wear Friday. Right now, I'd say a two piece clutch rod with ball bearing between them is a better setup for a street bike than a bare rod.

Finding Neutral seems a little better since adding the ball bearing, but I still dread coming up to Red lights and shifting into air hoping I found Neutral just before I stop. lol

Schwany said:

The two piece clutch rod with 6mm ball bearing between them seems to be working well after a 140 mile ride in mixed HWY, town, and rural road traffic. I did not have to deal with miles of backed up traffic though. I'll inspect the face of the adjuster, rod tips, and ball bearing for wear Friday. Right now, I'd say a two piece clutch rod with ball bearing between them is a better setup for a street bike than a bare rod.

Finding Neutral seems a little better since adding the ball bearing, but I still dread coming up to Red lights and shifting into air hoping I found Neutral just before I stop. lol

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Is it even possible to stall a Commando engine ? You might have to put it on the ground with the front brake.

acotrel said:

Is it even possible to stall a Commando engine ? You might have to put it on the ground with the front brake.

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Sure it's possible. Ludicrous to think it isn't.

A low side into the dirt might not work with the Keihin carburetion. I put a Norton engine powered Norton on the asphalt in the wet using a big 4LS front brake when it was new, and I actually can't remember if the motor stalled. That stall method is not recommended though.

This method works. Let the clutch out in second gear with high gearing and no throttle while stopped behind cars in traffic or at a stop light and a Norton engine will stall if not extremely quick pulling the clutch lever back in again and blipping the throttle. Admittedly that's how things work in my world. I'm not sure about your world though.

I checked the face of clutch adjuster at the clutch after the 140 mile ride and the dual pushrod with ball bearing in the middle is doing exactly what it needs to do. It is letting the pushrod section against the clutch adjuster spin at the speed of the clutch when the clutch is actuated. Without a ball bearing somewhere in the path the pushrod was locked up against the actuating mechanism at the other end and grinding a hole into the face of the clutch adjuster. Only a small witness patch about 1/8" in diameter with no evidence of grinding wear is showing on the adjuster surface. Just a little bright spot in the blackened smooth surface I created when I ground down polished and rehardened the adjuster. Dipped it in used automatic transmission fluid after getting it Red hot. Barn yard engineering.

Youz guys can do whatever you want with the TTi gearbox, but I would not use the TTi gearbox without a ball bearing somewhere in the clutch pushrod path. AMC did it for a good reason. I'm not sure what TTi was thinking, but my guess is their philosophy is let the racer (end user) figure out what works for them.

Schwany said:

Finding Neutral seems a little better since adding the ball bearing, but I still dread coming up to Red lights and shifting into air hoping I found Neutral just before I stop. lol

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There must be a way of fitting a neutral indicator switch.

- Knut

mdt-son said:

There must be a way of fitting a neutral indicator switch.

- Knut

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That would be helpful. Got an engineering drawing? Kidding

Might be easier to find Neutral if barefoot.

Another member mentioned how difficult it was to feel a shift into Neutral a month or so ago. First time I took a ride with the TTi gearbox installed it didn't seem that difficult and I wrongly said so. I was riding in a familiar area at low speeds with very mild traffic at the time.

The shifts are short throw to begin with and the shift into Neutral from 1st or 2nd is about 1/4 of a shift into other gears with the added thrill of no feedback other than it might be in Neutral. It is sort of like intentionally trying to find a false Neutral, which is usually a bad idea.

People that have not ridden with a TTi gearbox on the street (where it doesn't really belong) would probably be surprised at what it feels like. I'm kind of surprised I haven't gotten a bunch of the "Maybe you need to learn how to shift a motorcycle. I've never had a problem getting into Neutral and I've been riding my Commando with a TTi 5-speed gearbox on the street in downtown NYC for 15 years".

Lack of supportive or denying comments tells me one thing, there are few buyers who have put the TTi gearbox to use on the street. I am probably about to explore the same as you (I have the same 'box with the cross-over shift option). Now I am sorry to read about your experience. The 'box appears to have a design flaw.
I will certainly look for a design solution to include a neutral switch.
HD Sportster from year 2000 up (and the derivative Norton 961) features a drum shifter mechanism as well. I've not heard any negative reviews of the shifting pattern on these bikes.
Help! We need a gearbox design specialist to assess the design of the TTi 'box and suggest a remedy.

- Knut

Schwany said:

That would be helpful. Got an engineering drawing? Kidding

Might be easier to find Neutral if barefoot.

Another member mentioned how difficult it was to feel a shift into Neutral a month or so ago. First time I took a ride with the TTi gearbox installed it didn't seem that difficult and I wrongly said so. I was riding in a familiar area at low speeds with very mild traffic at the time.

The shifts are short throw to begin with and the shift into Neutral from 1st or 2nd is about 1/4 of a shift into other gears with the added thrill of no feedback other than it might be in Neutral. It is sort of like intentionally trying to find a false Neutral, which is usually a bad idea.

People that have not ridden with a TTi gearbox on the street (where it doesn't really belong) would probably be surprised at what it feels like. I'm kind of surprised I haven't gotten a bunch of the "Maybe you need to learn how to shift a motorcycle. I've never had a problem getting into Neutral and I've been riding my Commando with a TTi 5-speed gearbox on the street in downtown NYC for 15 years".

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Until this post, I was thinking that you would gradually get the feel of the TTI box and it would be less and less of an issue over time, but from the above description I'm wondering what you're gonna' do now...

It seems like it is a much bigger issue on the urban streets than out in the sticks. I almost never ride into the city on my norton. The stop and go sucks, as well as the bumper car mentality of driving in any city. Sometimes I go on rides out my way and never need to find neutral at all being that roundabouts have replaced a lot of stop signs. I could ride the clutch occasionally out in the country if I had to do that. If you keep the box, it seems like you only have a few choices.

1) Figure out some voodoo that makes finding neutral more reliable.
2) Ride the clutch as needed
3) Something else...???

I would guess this isn't an issue on a race bike since racers probably start the bike on a roller with the bike in gear and don't need neutral at all... Too bad that you're dealing with a design flaw in something that is an upgrade in every other way...

o0norton0o said:

I would guess this isn't an issue on a race bike since racers probably start the bike on a roller with the bike in gear and don't need neutral at all... Too bad that you're dealing with a design flaw in something that is an upgrade in every other way...

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When started on the roller, it's normally put in neutral before moving out of the pits. Then when lining up at the grid neutral again. Definitely if you have a dry clutch. But compared to a road bike, a full race season less times spent on finding neutral than a trip in town. Agree that the TTI is not the easiest to find neutral on. But changing to true or a false neutral on a race is definitely not what you want.

o0norton0o said:

Until this post, I was thinking that you would gradually get the feel of the TTI box and it would be less and less of an issue over time, but from the above description I'm wondering what you're gonna' do now...

It seems like it is a much bigger issue on the urban streets than out in the sticks. I almost never ride into the city on my norton. The stop and go sucks, as well as the bumper car mentality of driving in any city. Sometimes I go on rides out my way and never need to find neutral at all being that roundabouts have replaced a lot of stop signs. I could ride the clutch occasionally out in the country if I had to do that. If you keep the box, it seems like you only have a few choices.

1) Figure out some voodoo that makes finding neutral more reliable.
2) Ride the clutch as needed
3) Something else...???

I would guess this isn't an issue on a race bike since racers probably start the bike on a roller with the bike in gear and don't need neutral at all... Too bad that you're dealing with a design flaw in something that is an upgrade in every other way...

Click to expand...

I'll continue to use the TTi gearbox for the time being. Really like the gear ratios in the 5-speed.

As long as there is time coming up to a stop finding neutral is not as difficult as it may sound. If I have to hammer the front brake and the road is rough it's hell though. Avoiding traffic snarls is paramount in general. I do think I can ride the clutch if I have to without the kind of damage I experienced with a solid clutch pushrod with no ball bearing and RGM clutch using the dual piece clutch pushrod and ball bearing change.

I don't see the soft neutral shift as a design flaw. As you allude to it is not important for a road race bike, which it was designed for. Might be a PITA on an off road race bike though. Certainly not the friendliest street bike gearbox, but usable.

Have you been out on Hwy 2 near Sultan this summer? What a fluster cluck that has turned into any time after 12PM in either direction. Fortunately, I was in a car going through there. If I would have been on my Norton it would have melted into the asphalt.

I am located more south than rte 2 so I don't go up that way very often. I tend to do my best to stay local, riding around in the foothills. Last week I had to go up to Woodinville to deliver my friend's kid's phone which he had left in my truck. I had planned to use the Duvall causeway to cross back over the Snoqualmie river to cut back to the west, but it was closed for construction when I got there. I ended up continuing north until I was almost to Monroe where I crossed the river on some local farm road. Then when I turned south, that road had been covered in gravel (to do whatever that does, I'm not sure) I ended up riding 30mph for about 20 minutes until the gravel hazard ended. When I got to Woodinville the road entering town was stop and go for miles leading up to some 4 way stop. All in all it was a disaster as far as enjoyment of the ride was concerned.... The stop and go was annoying as hell even with an AMC box...

The best thing is to ride on a weekday after the morning rush hour and not at lunch time, nor the evening rush hours. Other than that, even out my way the traffic raises the danger level and lowers to fun factor a bit...

mdt-son said:

Lack of supportive or denying comments tells me one thing, there are few buyers who have put the TTi gearbox to use on the street. I am probably about to explore the same as you (I have the same 'box with the cross-over shift option). Now I am sorry to read about your experience. The 'box appears to have a design flaw.
I will certainly look for a design solution to include a neutral switch.
HD Sportster from year 2000 up (and the derivative Norton 961) features a drum shifter mechanism as well. I've not heard any negative reviews of the shifting pattern on these bikes.
Help! We need a gearbox design specialist to assess the design of the TTi 'box and suggest a remedy.

- Knut

Click to expand...

My own experience is that neutral is definitely less ‘obvious’ than some other boxes. But for me at least, I wouldn’t categorise it as an issue or design flaw, it’s just a characteristic.

I’ve got two TTIs in use currently on road and track FWIW.

Perhaps Schwany’s box has an issue ?

o0norton0o said:

I am located more south than rte 2 so I don't go up that way very often. I tend to do my best to stay local, riding around in the foothills. Last week I had to go up to Woodinville to deliver my friend's kid's phone which he had left in my truck. I had planned to use the Duvall causeway to cross back over the Snoqualmie river to cut back to the west, but it was closed for construction when I got there. I ended up continuing north until I was almost to Monroe where I crossed the river on some local farm road. Then when I turned south, that road had been covered in gravel (to do whatever that does, I'm not sure) I ended up riding 30mph for about 20 minutes until the gravel hazard ended. When I got to Woodinville the road entering town was stop and go for miles leading up to some 4 way stop. All in all it was a disaster as far as enjoyment of the ride was concerned.... The stop and go was annoying as hell even with an AMC box...

The best thing is to ride on a weekday after the morning rush hour and not at lunch time, nor the evening rush hours. Other than that, even out my way the traffic raises the danger level and lowers to fun factor a bit...

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I hear ya on the shite day in the saddle. It happens a lot more often than it did 10 years ago when I moved up here. Still there are some nice roads as you say at the right time of the day.

Fast Eddie said:

My own experience is that neutral is definitely less ‘obvious’ than some other boxes. But for me at least, I wouldn’t categorise it as an issue or design flaw, it’s just a characteristic.

I’ve got two TTIs in use currently on road and track FWIW.

Perhaps Schwany’s box has an issue ?

Click to expand...

I think the shift into Neutral is probably the same for everybody... vague.

I have had a couple of unexpected issues. The mainshaft bore had some metal shavings junk in it from the get go I thought was a rough surface inside the bore, foolish of me to think I could get away with not cleaning it out. The fine metal grit was more than likely part of the clutch pushrod issue, and some small bits of metal elsewhere might have somehow had something to do with the kickstart locking up once in a while. Fortunately, I have addressed the clutch pushrod and RGM clutch setup. The kick start lockup issue self healed after I drained the gearbox, and replaced the 80-90 wt gear oil with Lucas synthetic 75-140 wt gear oil and as I mentioned somewhere cleaned out the mainshaft clutch pushrod bore. Could all be coincidental, but it's working, so it is a win.

I emailed Andy Molnar who I bought the TTi gearbox from about some stuff and the 2-piece pushrod with the ball bearing between I am using with the TTi gearbox. He suggested a 6mm x 10mm roller exactly in the middle instead of a 6mm ball bearing for a 2-piece pushrod. So that is what I'm doing.

Being the cave man that I am I made a 6mm x 10mm roller out of a pushrod using a hacksaw and sandpaper to polish the ends. I'll heat treat it too for grins before I make up the rest of the pushrod assembly.

I'm passing along where I'm going with this pushrod thing.

mdt-son said:

Lack of supportive or denying comments tells me one thing, there are few buyers who have put the TTi gearbox to use on the street. I am probably about to explore the same as you (I have the same 'box with the cross-over shift option). Now I am sorry to read about your experience. The 'box appears to have a design flaw.
I will certainly look for a design solution to include a neutral switch.
HD Sportster from year 2000 up (and the derivative Norton 961) features a drum shifter mechanism as well. I've not heard any negative reviews of the shifting pattern on these bikes.
Help! We need a gearbox design specialist to assess the design of the TTi 'box and suggest a remedy.

- Knut

Click to expand...

This TTi box you have, is it to the Mk3 pattern for the lefthand gearchange? If it is like mine, it has a BIG design flaw in that the gearchange shaft out the rear of the inner g/box cover too long and parallel with the mainshaft (it should be at an angle so the crossover shaft clears the clutch drum)

TTi box as supplied
TTi denied that they had dropped a bollock and quoted 'we have supplied 15 of these Mk3 g/boxes and no one has said that they have had a problem' I replied 'Well now, there must be 15 Mk3 TTi g/boxes sat on shelves somewhere then as they are not a drop in replacement' TTi continued to deny there was a problem (or they didn't believe me when i told them about the angled gearchange shaft) UNTIL they got hold of a Mk3 and examined it.

Mk3 box showing angled gear shaft
'Oh, it has an angle shaft' was their next statement.
Upshot of all this was that TTI supplied a shorter shaft with the spline cut a little less in diameter, along with the words 'that this will allow for the misalignment' At no time did they admit they had made a mistake and their solution to it all was quite frankly, shite, as the splined cross over shafts coupling sleeve had only point contact with the splined g/box shaft.

I obtained a small Hooke joint that i cut the internal splines in to suit the cross over shaft and the g/box shaft.
Hooke joint fitted to crossover shaft.
This is the short version of events, as you can imagine there were quite a few emails and early morning phone calls to NZ to try and resolve matters. Covid didn't help as at one point i was considering taking the box back personally and sitting on TTi's doorstep till they corrected it....