Seems to be a debate on use of clutch when stopped

Onder · Feb 20, 2024

<Personally I don't leave a bike or a car in gear with the clutch in?>

When I moved to this country and had to take the driving test, I was sternly lectured by the instructor that you never sat in neutral at the light even with that handbrake on! Now that is test over kill but they say if you get rear ended, car in gear will
cause it to stall and you won't be thrown into traffic ahead.
Once past the test I have never used the handbrake or held the clutch down with car in gear! Same with the bike.
I get the point but.....

daveforty · Feb 20, 2024

I usually put it in neutral when stopped - it is an opportunity to stretch my arms / straighten my back, maybe stand on my feet to flex my arse muscles a bit. In London, I might be more inclined to hold it in gear for the sake of a quick getaway when the lights change.

As a long term T140 rider, I got used to putting it in neutral from 2nd while coasting to a stop. 7 plate clutch conversion was a big improvement but old habits die hard.

Curious re. driving instructor's comments. Going into neutral and putting the handbrake on is what I remember being taught to do, and that 'riding' the clutch was a no-no. But that was late 70s, so maybe ideas have changed since then. I got the impression keeping your foot on the clutch / brake pedal of a modern car was to stop the engine cutting out when stationary. Hence getting dazzled by the bright brake lights of the car in front when stopped in a traffic jam.

Schwany · Feb 20, 2024

Shifting into neutral before a stop is an automatic response when I ride. If I can't get the gearbox into neutral just before coming to a stop I figure there is something wrong with my clutch or gearbox or I forgot how to shift. I like knowing I am in neutral at a stop. I don't like holding the clutch in while stopped. Once the light turns green I do go into gear and have to hold the clutch until oncoming traffic clears, if making a left across traffic that is.

Emergency stops can make it difficult to get into neutral before coming to a complete stop though. Then I end up holding the clutch in while stopped in I don't know what gear sometimes when the gearbox gets kind of jammed up and won't let me back into neutral. It's usually in second and I have to launch in second or rock the bike a little to get it into neutral.

No debate from me. I am not caring what anyone else does.

Triton Thrasher · Feb 20, 2024

Onder said:
you never sat in neutral at the light even with that handbrake on! Now that is test over kill but they say if you get rear ended, car in gear will
cause it to stall and you won't be thrown into traffic ahead.

Sounds like something that was decided by a committee.

marshg246 · Feb 20, 2024

daveforty said:
As a long term T140 rider, I got used to putting it in neutral from 2nd while coasting to a stop. 7 plate clutch conversion was a big improvement but old habits die hard.

In other words, come to a stop from 2nd gear using only the brakes?

daveforty · Feb 20, 2024

I guess so. Slow down using a closed throttle (engine braking) and brakes as required, changing down the gearbox to 2nd, then de-clutching (hence coasting) and putting it in neutral from 2nd while still rolling albeit slowly, then coming to a full stop in neutral. When commuting in (London) traffic, it was a constant 'procedure'. In all probability, I wouldnt be 'higher' up the gearbox than 2nd 'cos a large part of the riding was splitting lanes through miles of slow moving traffic. (lane splitting is legal in the UK).

baz · Feb 20, 2024

Ho

daveforty said:
I guess so. Slow down using a closed throttle (engine braking) and brakes as required, changing down the gearbox to 2nd, then de-clutching (hence coasting) and putting it in neutral from 2nd while still rolling albeit slowly, then coming to a full stop in neutral. When commuting in (London) traffic, it was a constant 'procedure'. In all probability, I wouldnt be 'higher' up the gearbox than 2nd 'cos a large part of the riding was splitting lanes through miles of slow moving traffic. (lane splitting is legal in the UK).

How long ago were you riding in London?

daveforty · Feb 20, 2024

On my T140? 1980 to 1990, approx 10k per year. But subsequently used a K75, then a Guzzi T3, then a Hinckley Trident and finally a Hinckley Scrambler. Then retired in 2022 and moved many miles away. West London along the A40 & Westway (when it was a motorway) then M1 / A41 when I lived in Watford.

baz · Feb 20, 2024

daveforty said:
On my T140? 1980 to 1990, approx 10k per year. But subsequently used a K75, then a Guzzi T3, then a Hinckley Trident and finally a Hinckley Scrambler. Then retired in 2022 and moved many miles away. West London along the A40 & Westway (when it was a motorway) then M1 / A41 when I lived in Watford.

I bet you glad you moved away
How would you fancy taking a t140 through the city now? Just for fun

Tornado · Feb 20, 2024

cliffa said:
Anybody who's ridden a Velocette single can testify to that.

I hope to discover "The Delights and Economy of Velocetting" shortly once my '54 MSS arrives from the old world.
It has a belt drive primary with modern Kevlar plates from Yamaha, but of course has the original very unique clutch design. Will likely have to adapt my clutch in while stopped riding style for it....

hhh · Feb 20, 2024

baz said:
Most BSA unit singles I have owned are like this
As the clutch starts to heat up I adjust the clutch cable on the fly
Just so I can select neutral

The weird thing is that adjusting it up doesn't help, it's like a mechanical barrier that you can feel it hitting without disengagement.

hhh · Feb 20, 2024

Triton Thrasher said:
There were BSAs that used Neoprene (I think) lining material, which swelled up when warm, reducing the effective pressure plate lift.

That's a possible theory here, but I've got good old fashioned cork inserts.

phippsy · Feb 20, 2024

baz said:
On a lot of old bikes especially Brit bikes the clutch will start to cook up loosing clutch adjustment
Also the clutch pushrod can burn out hence the SRM clutch pressure plate with a pushrod bearing conversion for unit and pre unit triumph and BSAs that stops the pushrod burning up
On my old Ducati 860 I used to dread pulling up at a set of lights in gear,coz there's no way I'd find neutral and if the lights didn't change pretty quick it'd drag you across the junction if you didn't hold the front brake
Now I don't know if this is typical of ducatis of this era or just my one?

RGM do a needle bearing conversion for Nortons , my clutch is so nice and light I have never felt the need ,

acotrel · Feb 20, 2024

It is a very long time since I rode a motorcycle on public roads. With a car, if you sit with a gear engaged with the motor running and the clutch pedal pushed down, the thrust bearing wears quicker and can become noisey and even collapse. With a bike, in traffic, It would depend on how paranoid I was. I would normally sit in first gear with the clutch held in, particularly if I was in front at traffic lights. If someone loses it in the intersection in front of you, you might need to move quickly. I don't like the uncertainty on public roads. With a car, most hits are not fatal.

cliffa · Feb 20, 2024

Tornado said:
I hope to discover "The Delights and Economy of Velocetting" shortly once my '54 MSS arrives from the old world.
It has a belt drive primary with modern Kevlar plates from Yamaha, but of course has the original very unique clutch design. Will likely have to adapt my clutch in while stopped riding style for it....

Ah yes, it must be the KTT (Kevin Thurston) setup. By all accounts it is a great improvement. Once setup the standard Velocette clutch is very good, and even lighter than a well setup Commando, but they are very definitely not the bike for modern stop / start city traffic, but apparently the KTT setup really helps. I miss my Venom all the same. If you are not familiar with the clutch setup this video may help….

Velocette 500, 5 speed conversion, part 7

Gearbox built, installed in bike, special tool manufactured to deal with clutch springs, engine run and gearbox / clutch functional test on the bench.

www.youtube.com

ashman · Feb 20, 2024

My 850 I am still running the original alloy clutch lever from the factory and the clutch pull is nice and light all the way to the gearbox arm a nice straight run, but I few older Commando as well a few 850s I have worked on had steel short levers on, and I have found the clutch pull to be very heavy, they think that its normal till they pull my clutch lever and surprised in how light and smooth it is and asked what I have done to make it so light and smooth, they are shocked when I tell them it's been like that since new and I am still running the original clutch plates.
All of them are running different clutch plates as having slipping clutch issues with the stock plates, to find out they been using the recommended motor oil that the workshop manual advises and a few thinking putting more oil in the primary thinking the chain has to run through the oil, as they think 7 floz is not enough to lube the chain, I use between 5 and 7 floz in my primary and I have never had a dry primary chain as well most have primary oil leaks because they keep tightening up that centre nut to tight.
I have fixed up so many leaking primary covers over the years for mates buying Commandos, they have had Triumphs and gone down the Commando road and of course the Commando clutch is not the same and always come to me for advice but I just say lets open it up and have a look and so many using sealer on the cover to try and stop the oil leak, lucky I have a big roll of new rubber seal, and pulling the clutch plates out to give them a good clean and to get rid of that heavy motor oil in what they been using and to add clutch plate maintenance to their service list of things to do.
Most of the time they just come up and ask me to look into it when they have a problem, too me it's an easy task to open up the primary and inspect and clean, but it works for me as a 30 pack of beers for helping them is good for my beer fridge in the workshop, but usually they help me drink them and stay over lol.

Ashley

jamesp · Feb 20, 2024

I went through a DMV sponsored motorcycle riding course with my wife in California when she wanted to learn to ride. They taught staying in gear, clutch in at intersection in case you need to move quickly. I believe it was a test question. On my stick shift cars I always go to neutral, foot off clutch to save the throw out bearing.

baz · Feb 21, 2024

jamesp said:
I went through a DMV sponsored motorcycle riding course with my wife in California when she wanted to learn to ride. They taught staying in gear, clutch in at intersection in case you need to move quickly. I believe it was a test question. On my stick shift cars I always go to neutral, foot off clutch to save the throw out bearing.

I'm guessing all modern bikes are capable of sitting at traffic lights in gear all day if necessary
But you can forget it on "some" older bikes

ggryder · Feb 21, 2024

jamesp said:
I went through a DMV sponsored motorcycle riding course with my wife in California when she wanted to learn to ride. They taught staying in gear, clutch in at intersection in case you need to move quickly. I believe it was a test question. On my stick shift cars I always go to neutral, foot off clutch to save the throw out bearing.

It's not just the throw-out bearing, you're pushing on the end of the crankshaft, and loading the crankshaft thrust bearings.

acotrel · Feb 21, 2024

ashman said:
My 850 I am still running the original alloy clutch lever from the factory and the clutch pull is nice and light all the way to the gearbox arm a nice straight run, but I few older Commando as well a few 850s I have worked on had steel short levers on, and I have found the clutch pull to be very heavy, they think that its normal till they pull my clutch lever and surprised in how light and smooth it is and asked what I have done to make it so light and smooth, they are shocked when I tell them it's been like that since new and I am still running the original clutch plates.
All of them are running different clutch plates as having slipping clutch issues with the stock plates, to find out they been using the recommended motor oil that the workshop manual advises and a few thinking putting more oil in the primary thinking the chain has to run through the oil, as they think 7 floz is not enough to lube the chain, I use between 5 and 7 floz in my primary and I have never had a dry primary chain as well most have primary oil leaks because they keep tightening up that centre nut to tight.
I have fixed up so many leaking primary covers over the years for mates buying Commandos, they have had Triumphs and gone down the Commando road and of course the Commando clutch is not the same and always come to me for advice but I just say lets open it up and have a look and so many using sealer on the cover to try and stop the oil leak, lucky I have a big roll of new rubber seal, and pulling the clutch plates out to give them a good clean and to get rid of that heavy motor oil in what they been using and to add clutch plate maintenance to their service list of things to do.
Most of the time they just come up and ask me to look into it when they have a problem, too me it's an easy task to open up the primary and inspect and clean, but it works for me as a 30 pack of beers for helping them is good for my beer fridge in the workshop, but usually they help me drink them and stay over lol.

Ashley

The length of the clutch pushrod changes the angle of the cable to lever within the gearbox. If the angle of the cable to internal lever is either obtuse or too small, the clutch is usually heavy. I use a piece of 6mm steel rod, cut it to length and file the ends. I don't bother to harden the ends. My clutch is the Manx type with the adjusting screw in the middle.

Seems to be a debate on use of clutch when stopped

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