Result of Tri Spark

Vented points cover = kludge fix. Hey I thought a heat problem didn't exist?

I'm old school and no one will ever convince me that electronics + heat is a good combination. Unless there is airflow or cooling of some sort an electronic part will fail sooner than later. I never heard of an original trispark which was the same set up as a boyer or any other EI having issues.

why not just cut a slit and put in some grill like people do on the primaries w/ belt drive? The cover already has a drain vent for any water that would get in.

Hey,

Yes I am now offering a vented ignition cover.

I decided to design one since there was a fair amount of feedback and concerns in regards to the heat build up in that cavity. So essentially it was to satisfy that concern. It's a cover that is CNC machined out of a solid piece of billet as opposed to cast, like the original. The luster is as good as it gets. Its has a pair of very thin slits in the front, and a couple in the rear, so that air can easily pass through the cavity.

I have yet to actually use one of these covers since I really have not see any issues in regards to the heat on my builds. Others, some on this forum, found that the unit works better when vented. It can certainly have a lot to do with where and how the bike is being used.

So for those that would want to cool that cavity a bit more, there is now an option......well, you have a few options.

- You can run the standard cover, as most do at this time.
- You can modify your own cover, like 'Pelican' suggests with some slits and a mesh.
- You can space the cover away from the timing cover and create some air flow, like some have done on this forum as well.
- You can get one of the new covers from CNW. The cover cost 49.95, show polished.

Get a hold of me in the shop if you have any questions at all

Thanks..............and Happy New Year to everyone. It will be the best year for Commandos yet.

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

OK, I love my Trispark but if a vented cover is required to ensure long-term reliability, I'll be going back to the points/AAU...

Mike,

Not saying you need a vented cover. Its just an option, thats all.

Like the primary covers for belt drives. Some run them vented....others just leave the cavity enclosed like the stock set-up.

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

In regard to modern options for ignition for Brit twins, singles, and triples originally equipped with points, a specialist manufacturer in the UK is currently working on a programmable inductive system, triggered by a simple and almost bulletproof hall switch which fits in place of the stock points.

This also has the facility for a MAP or TPS switch, but the main advantage is longer spark duration, and obviously also the fact that the advance curve can be tailored to work perfectly with any type of engine modifications. Guy that makes these is an ex F1 race engine builder, and prototype system should be working early part of next year.

ludwig said:

Carbonfibre said:

.. the fact that the advance curve can be tailored to work perfectly with any type of engine modifications..

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If this system only 'knows' engine rpm , I would'nt expect too much of it . IMO , any advance curve that is function of rpm only , can never be more than a crude compromise ..

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This is very true.
It is also a fact that a Hall sensor has a maximum temperature above which it will not operate. Generally this is around 350 degrees F. and may get as high as 380 F. with automotive spec components. That is why any ignition with a hall sensor as a pickup may have a problem in the points cavity of a Norton. I have monitored the temp in the points cavity and 350 degrees is normal for a stock bike ridden in a sporting manner. I have seen them get over 400 F. when ridden up a mountain pass. Any hall sensor is going to have stopped working by that temperature. If there is ventilation to provide some cooling air to the electronic component it will often keep it running but if you get the engine good and hot and then shut the bike off you may find it will not restart until it cools off a bit. Generally this does not permanently damage the hall sensor but just renders it inoperable till it cools.
A better sensor for use on a Norton is a VR sensor. A VR sensor can be built to handle 500 F. easily. The downside is that it is much tougher to design a circuit to convert the VR sensors output [zero crossing] into a usable signal like a square wave which is what a hall sensor produces with no circuitry.
Of the time I spent getting the fuel injection system working I spent the majority of the time working out the ignition system. The fueling was a piece of cake in comparison. Jim

The guy making these systems has up to now not had a single problem with the hall switches used on classic road race systems over many years, or when back in the day they were used on F1 cars!

The main advantage of a programmable system though is that the curve can be set up on a dyno to work perfectly with any particular power unit, and there is no need to put up with the often inappropriate curves that come with the often very cheaply made systems available currently.

The control unit of these systems has drivers for either TPS or MAP switches, which can be added to further improve engine performance. There is an option for CDI type system for use in forced induction applications running very high boost levels, but for all atmo motors the inductive type is much better, and is used on pretty much all modern petrol engines.

The guy also makes control units for injection systems, which will work on pretty much any application, and have been tried and tested in many areas of serious motorsport .

comnoz said:

I have monitored the temp in the points cavity and 350 degrees is normal for a stock bike ridden in a sporting manner. I have seen them get over 400 F. when ridden up a mountain pass.

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350 degrees F? I have yet to see the temperature reach 171°F under normal running conditions using a thermal strip in the points cavity of my Commando!

I tried a "C" range (241-309°F) strip (see photo below), but it did not record any temperature reading, (The white area turns black as the temperature reaches the point shown on the scale and is supposedly accurate to +/- 1%).



I then tried a lower "B" range (160- 230°F) strip which so far, has shown the temperature has not exceeded 171°F. I accept the temperature could go higher than 171°F, but 180-230°F higher seems a lot?

By the look of the "Tri-Spark" system, I would imagine its an old technology multi spark CDI set up, which isnt going to work as well as a properly designed digital inductive system, which can also be programmed.

Carbonfibre said:

By the look of the "Tri-Spark" system, I would imagine its an old technology multi spark CDI set up, which isnt going to work as well as a properly designed digital inductive system, which can also be programmed.

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It's an up to date digital system as far as I'm aware?


http://www.trispark.com.au/home/products/

Is the system programmable, and not quite sure how a digital trigger signal is going to be obtained from what looks like an analog pick up set up?

Carbonfibre said:

Is the system programmable, and not quite sure how a digital trigger signal is going to be obtained from what looks like an analog pick up set up?

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That's a question for Steve Kelly: http://www.trispark.com.au/contact/

Over 300F? That's pretty darned hot - water should sizzle easily and I have never seen that happen on my Commando timing case/point cover.

I suspect the trispark would and does work well for those that only ride their bike a minimal amount as in riding for a few miles then stopping for a period of time 30-40 or even 100 miles once in awhile wouldn't push the system enough for a failure, but I think a good test would be one who rides the bike many miles on a regular basis or one who takes long trips, riding entire days with gas or food stops. I also think an open or vented cover would reduce the chances of failure considerably.

A solid state system can easily withstand the temps involved IF the proper components are selected. THere are a lot of military or other technical applications where the temps are well above that found inside the points cover of the COmmando. The question would just be whether the appropriate parts are used.

As I have said many times, the Trispark seems to be the only E- system currently available that can actually improve performance over the oem points/AAU - and that improvement is at idle; it is the same in the rest of the rev range. Other E-systems, according to the advance curves, reduce engine performance compared to the points/AAU. And they all require more power to operate the ignition than the points system.

It's great not to have to adjust/replace points but I don't know why ANY aftermarket system is made to revise the ignition curve to one that is less effective for the engine.

I really like the trispark and the fact that it's self contained in the points cover BUT if there is an actual problem here, I would prefer that they separate the trigger and electronics...

mike996 said:

A solid state system can easily withstand the temps involved IF the proper components are selected. THere are a lot of military or other technical applications where the temps are well above that found inside the points cover of the COmmando. The question would just be whether the appropriate parts are used.

As I have said many times, the Trispark seems to be the only E- system currently available that can actually improve performance over the oem points/AAU - and that improvement is at idle; it is the same in the rest of the rev range. Other E-systems, according to the advance curves, reduce engine performance compared to the points/AAU. And they all require more power to operate the ignition than the points system.

It's great not to have to adjust/replace points but I don't know why ANY aftermarket system is made to revise the ignition curve to one that is less effective for the engine.

I really like the trispark and the fact that it's self contained in the points cover BUT if there is an actual problem here, I would prefer that they separate the trigger and electronics...

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Thats pretty much spot on.............analog E systems do not have the required linear advance curve, and the rather crude "digital" systems I have seen while a little better than the analog types, are still not able to provide the correct advance curve.

The reason for the E systems not working correctly has to do with cost of manufacture and the profits to be made. In the case of the very worst systems, component cost amounts to pennys, and the profits are very high.

At the end of the day though in common with very poor rear suspension units, most buyers are more happy to buy cheaper parts that dont work, rather than paying 2 or 3 times as much money for those that do, so the requirements of buyers dictate to some extent what is manufactured.

L.A.B. said:

comnoz said:

I have monitored the temp in the points cavity and 350 degrees is normal for a stock bike ridden in a sporting manner. I have seen them get over 400 F. when ridden up a mountain pass.

Click to expand...

350 degrees F? I have yet to see the temperature reach 171°F under normal running conditions using a thermal strip in the points cavity of my Commando!

I tried a "C" range (241-309°F) strip (see photo below), but it did not record any temperature reading, (The white area turns black as the temperature reaches the point shown on the scale and is supposedly accurate to +/- 1%).

I then tried a lower "B" range (160- 230°F) strip which so far, has shown the temperature has not exceeded 171°F. I accept the temperature could go higher than 171°F, but 180-230°F higher seems a lot?

Click to expand...

I have a thermocouple that I have attached to a bolt in the points cavity on my fuelie bike and my wifes stock MK3. I have only monitored the temp on my wifes bike when it was on the dyno but I have an indash readout on my fuelie bike so I can watch it down the road. I have seen 350 degrees many times on both bikes. I have used the same dash readout to monitor oil temp and temperatures in several places on the engine. Do you have an exhaust pipe in front of your points cavity like stock? Jim

comnoz said:

Do you have an exhaust pipe in front of your points cavity like stock?

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Check my avatar photo.