Result of Tri Spark

Hello Highdesert. I say a Trispark needs ventalation to be reliable. This is based on my experiences during a 1500 mile road trip on my 75 MK3 which included a Trispark failure at 800 miles. After ventalation, function restored with no further problems and excellent performance.

According to Matt:

"There is an over load protection built into the Tri Spark unit. This to protect it from damage caused by the coil in case its failing. To check if the over load protection has been engaged, remove the points cover and check the LED light while the bike is not running. So this would be done right after the bike stops running. It may be best if you just leave the cover off, go for a ride and when it shuts down, look at the LED light on the module. If it is blinking then that is an indication that its has shut itself down. Reason would be an over load or a short-circuit in the coil drive."

So, therfore, in addition to all the talk about temperature of the components causing the problem there could also be a connection between temperature and the "over load protection" being triggered. In any case, until the specifics of the cause are identified thankfully the cure is a simple one.

Hianddry, I did not say Trispark or any ignition had a known low temp threshold, just that its needs a threshold above what Commandos are known to produce and should be build to take it. I like what I've read on Trispark and will reproduce its timing curve in Ms Peel's programmable ignition as base line. I'm so done with Boyer, so TriSpark is it if I can't keep points going good in plain delightful Trixie Combat. Just stating the obvious and realistic, we all must deal with the luck of the draw and lose it now and then.

I'm a bit put off at last report of protection circuit kicking off on hot rides, may be just that one unit's luck of the draw in manufacture or assembly of components, so withholding judgment and await further reports or none.
I'm getting a laser temp IR reader to monitor areas of interest.

As to failure of man or natures produces, I've have brand new spark plugs, fuses and points condensers bad right out the box to make me dig out old ones to get going again, after much wasted time checking and triple checking all the things we know too. I may have a spat with the fella who made/sold Peel ign system after shopping for years for a do it all well a long time system. Its optical trigger no terminals, just hard wired leads into potted unit under sealed tight and hot points cover. Mine gets under water and grit covered routinely.
Price matters too, so would a more robust ign system be bought for 50% more?

Lets face facts here..............the Tri-Spark in common with the even worse Boyer and Pazon systems is cheaply made, and in reality not fit for purpose!

There is no reason whatsoever for a properly designed and manufactured ignition system, not to last the whole of the service life of the bike to which its fitted.

OE ignition failure today is almost unheard of, so why do owners of classic bikes have to put up with systems that seem like they are made out of parts found in Xmas crackers, and where failure is very common?

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OE ignition failure today is almost unheard of

I take it you don't work in the automotive industry where ignition failure is very common. Jim

If ignition failure in the automotive industry was as common as that related to shoddily made and poorly designed aftermarket MC ignitions, then I think the manufacturers involved may well have gone out of business pretty quickly.

Well, if original equipment ignition systems were so reliable, then boyer and pazon and trispark would not even be in business right now.

The simple fact is that they were crap compared to the electronic units.

Spring loaded auto advance that caused timing to vary some 6 degrees was and remains unacceptable.

They were the best in their day some 40 years ago but this is 2011.

I have to agree that IF the trispark's longterm survival/correct operation is based on needing ventilation, it's not designed properly for the application.

We seem to agree that the Trispark is superb as far as performance is concerned so it seems simple enough to clearly determine if the unit fails at a temp that can occur in the Commando points cavity. If so, then either the internal components need to be upgraded or the trigger/electronics need to be split. I would not object to paying more if that is necessary though I would NOT like to have to pay full price for a replacement unit.

Although I agree that venting/spacing the cover may do the job, IMO that is not the proper solution. One buys a product with the ASSUMPTION that it will work as advertised, without another modification being needed. If the trispark does need ventilation to work, then that should be stated and a vented point cover offered as an option at a reasonable price.

ALL the above is predicated on the ASSUMPTION that there really is some sort of heat-limitation on the components at temperatures that can be reached in the Commando point's cavity with the oem cover and that it can occur under normal operating conditions. "Normal" to me would include any sort of operation in which the bike isn't seizing up due to some overheating problem!

Note that spring-operated advance mechansms are still currently used on many carb'd performance engine distributers from MSD and others. THe advance curves can be tailored with differnt springs/spacers to come up with just about any curve needed.

Carbonfibre said:

If ignition failure in the automotive industry was as common as that related to shoddily made and poorly designed aftermarket MC ignitions, then I think the manufacturers involved may well have gone out of business pretty quickly.

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No question there is a lot of shoddy made stuff out there. But if I had a dollar for every auto ignition coil, module, crank or cam sensor or plug wire I have replace in the last twenty years I would be ordering up a New Norton.

How many verified failures of the TriSpark are there? 1 or 2?

Some of you might need to get a little perspective.

Correct me if I have this wrong, but don't we have ONE person who posted on this forum that had a problem with a Trispark on a 1500 mile ride and after he took the points cover off

it cooled it down and then ran perfectly?

We also have I think maybe one or possibly two reports of trispark or CNW replacing a unit that was acknowledged to be defective with the wrong or bad plastic mold.

Out of how money sold, how many miles ridden? We don't know those facts.

And so because of this, Trisparks are supposedly not to be "trusted", and they should never have been sold in the first place?

By this logic Boyers and Pazons,etc, because of reported early "failures" should also not be trusted, and should never have been offered to the gullible public.

To me, the facts behind these conclusions just do not add up. These conclusions are based on by far the very few "bad" units rather than the very many good ones that people do not
bother to post about.

But hey, keep your extra wired remote boyer units or your 40 year old "reliable" spring loaded auto advance and points setups.
Do a search and read all the posts about fractured boyer wires both inside the points cover or somewhere up to the boyer unit hidden under the seat.

Well said!!!! :wink:

swooshdave said:

How many verified failures of the TriSpark are there? 1 or 2?

Some of you might need to get a little perspective.

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Ya and if you were one of the few that paid 300 bucks and had it fail how would ya feel about perspective? :roll:

britbike220 said:

swooshdave said:

How many verified failures of the TriSpark are there? 1 or 2?

Some of you might need to get a little perspective.

Click to expand...

Ya and if you were one of the few that paid 300 bucks and had it fail how would ya feel about perspective? :roll:

Click to expand...

Well, if you bought it from Matt it wouldn't be a problem. :mrgreen:

Britbike,

I bought a trispark from Matt at CNW last March. IF I had had a problem with it, I would have called him and I have no doubt he would have shipped me a new unit by the next day,
along with the stipulation that I would send mine back to him immediately so it could be tested and found where the problem was.

I would not have had an emotional reaction. I would not have felt like I had been gyped, or been taken advantage of, or chastised myself for being so stupid as to buy it in the first place.

I would have reacted with reason and without emotion. I know that it is not a perfect world and sometimes things go wrong.

And I would be assured that my decision was still the right one by the response and trust I have in Matt at CNW to continue to do the right thing in all my dealings with him.

I also believe that if CNW sent me another unit and it also "failed" that if I asked for my $300 back and told Matt I just wanted to end my trispark "experiment" that he would have

fully understood and refunded my money.

You seem to think that if you buy one and have a problem that you are just screwed with no support and out the money.

That has not been my experience from years of doing business with CNW. Perhaps yours?

I think that many of us were concerned by the idea of mounting all the electronics for the ignition in what is the relatively harsh environment of the Commando's points area. Perhaps this is because of a Luddite tendancy but then anyone making parts for machines which went out of production thirty-five years ago ought to expect a traditional element in the customer base.

Do we actually know why the Commando Tri-Spark is built in this way ? It is subjected to heat and vibration which could be avoided (and is in other designs).

After years of making sure that Lucas RITA boxes were properly rubber-suspended and that Boyers were mounted out of harm's way with foam pads then, although I'm open to improvements, I do need convincing that the extra 'risk' of an all in one unit is worthwhile.

It seems to me that we have had four or five failures of Tr-Sparks on this forum and there has been no comment from the manufacturer. He appears to follow the Boyer practice of simply replacing anything returned but with no explanation. As has been mentioned, we have no idea how many have been sold. If it's only fifty then the failure rate is unacceptable. If it's a thousand then things need to be kept in perspective.

The comment about Boyer wiring failures (away from the pick-up) is not really valid as it is a feature of the Commando's design. It is true that the system is very sensitive to poor connections and therefore gives early signs of problems but the Tri-Spark needs a live feed to the unit and the cable, where it runs through the rear of the timing chest will be subject to the same stress and damage as if a Boyer is fitted. It will probably not manifest itself first as a misfire but will simply fail completely at some point.

I am completely convinced by the improvements that the Tri-Spark offers when working but my perception is that the failure rate is too high. How many Boyer failures have been reported here over the same period ? This is perhaps not a fair comparison as some may simply have bought a Tri-Spark or Pazon.

I want one but the cost of two (one for the bike and one in the toolkit) is putting me off at the moment....or should I leave the Boyer in place and simply carry a Boyer pick-up and rotor for re-fitment if the Tri-Spark gives up ?

I think you have mistaken what I believe highdesert. I never once disputed any service from any vendor about replacing a failed unit. My only feeling on the matter really boils down to not thinking the enclosed unit is reliable for long trips and when used in prolonged heat situations, ie the points cavity; pretty big difference from what you are inferring. I do know that based on the "few" problems I have read here that I would not put 300 bucks on the table to possibly have one of my vacations ruined due to a failure when I know my boyer or pazon will do the same task better for half the price. I 100% back the original trispark units as I have owned one and loved it. :|

My tests show that a Tri Spark works much better when you use 40W oil and an 18-inch rear wheel. I find this data to be conclusive.

The spirited discussion in this forum over the TriSpark EI stems from two features of this unit, namely, (1) the clear performance advantage of the unit at tick-over due to its idle-stabilization advance curve, and (2) the unfortunate and ill-advised decision of the company to move the logic electronics from the frame (at 25C) to the timing cavity (at 80C to 170C, depending on the source of the data). As one who has spent a working lifetime designing electrical instruments for a 200C environment, give me a few minutes of your time and I'll try to condense some of that knowledge into a paragraph.

Electrical components, and especially active components, react to elevated temperature differrently, depending on design grid spacing, electrical stress at 25C, and packaging methods. Some plastic parts survive at 200C, and some metal-cased parts fail at 40C. If high-temperature performance were only about chosing the right components, those of us doing high-temp design gigs would have an easy time of it; unfortuneately, we have to work a bit harder to earn our living. Designs that survive initial heat runs are those that have been purged of "infant" failures, those failures that occur immediately upon the application of heat, usually due to too much stress in the initial design. Once a stable design is achieved, the circuit joins a large group of circuits with a reliability curve like that below.



This curve is derived from years of data on high-reliability (no "infant deaths") circuits comprising both passive and active components, and shows a modest degradation in MTTF with temperature of a factor 2 for each 10 degrees C. So it should be clear that even the best circuit design, using the best components, will fail 1000 times faster at 125C than it will at 25C. The blue curve represents circuits that were designed to operate with a MTTF of 100,000 hours at 25C. The green curve represents less reliable circuits designed to operate with a MTTF of 10,000 hours at 25C. For reference, 10,000 hours represents a motorcycle operated for 10 hours each week for 20 years. Even if the TriSpark design is a 100,000 hour design (this is unlikely, considering the number of "infant deaths" reported in the forum), the simple and tragic act of moving the module into the timing cavity reduces the mean time to failure to 100 hours. Because the temperature of the cavity is, on average, a bit less than 125C, a few hundred hours is the best one can expect from the TriSpark before the probability of failure reaches 0.5. There is no electrical design solution to this problem. New units will fail after a very few years (or months) of operation in that cavity. The TriSpark module needs to be moved back to its original position on the frame if it is to provide reliable use.

I was not successful in engaging TriSPark on this issue (I got back a marketing response telling me what a "tough little unit" they had); maybe some of you can be more persuasive with them. I really hate to see such a nice product fail due to an unfortunate placement decision.

Rick

Ok Rick, based upon your conclusions our trisparks will fail and become a worthless piece of bad investment after a couple hundred hours of use.

And, you state with emphatic certainty that the design is tragically flawed.

If only you personally had been taken seriously in your communication with the manufacturer, why then the design would have had your improvement ideas and all this projected future failure could have been avoided.

Well, since I have put some 160 hours of use on my trispark, I better get a boyer wired in place because I have only 40 hours left before my trispark poops out.

Thanks for the heads up. Think I can unload my unit quickly on someone who is not aware of your conclusions?

Steve Kelly from Trispark would I think read this forum, so why is he not getting into the debate. He replaced my original unit when it went tits... I have just finished a overhaul of the bike and deceided to give the trispark another try, because as everybody says it gives better idleing and starting. She started first kick great.. sat there and thumped away nicely. Over the holiday i deceided to go on a road trip to my brothers, about 250 miles away, 2 tanks of petrol on the roadster. We ran for about an hour at around 3.5k revs then nellie started to misfire. The ambient temp was about 2c. I needed to stop and squeeze my neck to get the lumps out so had a coffee and refueld. Started first kick and managed the remainder of the trip no problems. This points to me that the unit has a problem with the heat build up under the cover. Before I started the return trip my brother suggested that we vented the points cover. He being a lot older than me, I agreed, got a spare anyway. We drilled 3 8mm holes directly into the cover either side. Left this morning and arrived home only stopping for fuel. Ambient temp today was about 5c and she didnt miss a beat, even pushing her upto 80/4.5k on the duel carrageways.. Who knows what the problem is. I know Steve will replace the units when faulty but that still dosent make amends for the three weeks you are with out a £200 ignition.