P11 basket case

Junglebiker said:

Not 100% certain what I am doing for the front brake caliper yet.

Click to expand...

I have a bunch of left front Honda CBR 600F4 calipers. I would be happy to donate one if you would like - they are essentially a knock off of a 4-piston Brembo. Stops my Commando like a modern sport bike. PM me your address if you want one - happy to donate to the cause!

Derek Wilson said:

I have a bunch of left front Honda CBR 600F4 calipers. I would be happy to donate one if you would like - they are essentially a knock off of a 4-piston Brembo. Stops my Commando like a modern sport bike. PM me your address if you want one - happy to donate to the cause!

Click to expand...

Wow, thanks for the offer! I like the idea, but would you feel bad if I didn't end up using it? I've got a particular look in mind and I'm still working out the balance between that and performance. I'll PM you my shipping address.

mdt-son said:

You have actually. A proper P11 head would have been furnished using a Birco "25319" casting. Of course you can't verify rocker spindles unless you dismantle the head. If untouched, you can be confident the head has plain rocker spindles.

The earlier head casting Birco "23166" may be used IF special spigot substitution rings are fitted (and scrolled rocker spindles replaced with plain ones, for use in the uprated engines). These rings are hard to find now.

- Knut

Click to expand...

So I got into my 25319 casting head and discovered this:

All 4 of the spindles were this type, the single hole, non scrolled/non-notched type. I ended up deciding not to use this head for a couple of reasons, the biggest reason is because it has a questionably repaired spark plug hole. These spindle are not great, but they are better than the notched type I have available to use. Would it not be possible to replicate the notch found on later spindles on these?

Junglebiker said:

All 4 of the spindles were this type, the single hole, non scrolled/non-notched type. I ended up deciding not to use this head for a couple of reasons, the biggest reason is because it has a questionably repaired spark plug hole. These spindle are not great, but they are better than the notched type I have available to use. Would it not be possible to replicate the notch found on later spindles on these?

Click to expand...

I guess you could have the spindles machined with a cobalt cutting tool, but why bother? Tooling and rigging will not be cheap if framed out, and new spindles are not that expensive (about $18 a piece at time of writing).
Fitting spindles with a notch or a recess along the circumference is recommended, as oil delivery to the rocker tips will not be interrupted during back and forth rotation of the rocker. In addition, the notch/recess makes up for a possible (slight) misalignment of bores in spindle and rocker. Remember the rockers may drift slightly back and forth in operation while the spindles can't.

- Knut

Got the head on!



And yes, that is a newly made Molnar cylinder block. Anybody spot the little bit of vintage Webco? Inside are JS Motorsports/Carillo rods (longer than stock, with JSM/Wiseco lightweight pistons to match), JSM JS0 camshaft, JSM BSA style radiused lifters and bronze lifter block, JSM/KPMI Black Diamond valves, JSM Beehive springs, JSM reinforced silicone gaskets, JSM/Total Seal gapless rings, maybe more I am forgetting about. Went with a Commando head in the end, but nothing special about it aside from light porting.

Junglebiker said:

And yes, that is a newly made Molnar cylinder block. Anybody spot the little bit of vintage Webco? Inside are JS Motorsports/Carillo rods (longer than stock, with JSM/Wiseco lightweight pistons to match), JSM JS0 camshaft, JSM BSA style radiused lifters and bronze lifter block, JSM/KPMI Black Diamond valves, JSM Beehive springs, JSM reinforced silicone gaskets, JSM/Total Seal gapless rings, maybe more I am forgetting about. Went with a Commando head in the end, but nothing special about it aside from light porting.

Click to expand...

Looks good! Congrats on assembly of all these expensive parts - I hope you will be pleased with the outcome.
Did you select a spun-cast liner or the Nikasil treatment for the cylinder block? I am very tempted at ordering a 750 barrel from TGA/MPL myself.

- Knut

mdt-son said:

Looks good! Congrats on assembly of all these expensive parts - I hope you will be pleased with the outcome.
Did you select a spun-cast liner or the Nikasil treatment for the cylinder block? I am very tempted at ordering a 750 barrel from TGA/MPL myself.

- Knut

Click to expand...

I went with the cast iron sleeves. I'm not a huge fan of Nikasil; I recognise it s superior cooling properties, of course, but I have also seen too many cylinders with the plating flaking off. I admit that it has ben several years since I checked on the price of replating, but the last time I did it was expensive enough to be a deterrent.

Usually I would not be able to spend the kind of money I did on this engine, but an unexpected windfall came my way and I decided to seize the possibly once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

Lucky you on the barrels. I'm impressed. That finned thing on the side of the head for oiling the spindles is retro different. Probably a good oil feeder.

I'm still feeding my rocker spindles on the old head from the top. I used the JSM rocker spindle covers. The spindles won't ever spin with those on it. My rocker spindles are notched. However, I replaced them a long time ago. I can't remember if the ones I pulled out were smooth faced.

Here's my whiny little baby part. My motor runs hot as hell with all those parts in it. My bores are +.040 and at the tight JSM spec. I'm interested in how yours runs as far as heat goes once you get it in the frame. I think I must have done something wrong. Either timing is not right, or the motor is too tight, or I washed the cylinders cuz I had a hell of a time keeping the motor running initially. Carburetors were set too lean and I had a loose header pipe that made it pop like a kettle corn machine. Enough crying.

Is your motor still a 750 or now an 850?

Still a 750. Stock 73mm bore.

The finned thing on the head is the piece of "vintage Webco" I referred to earlier, so congrats, you win many kudos. I've never seen a set for a Norton before, just for Triumphs. In all honesty I don't need them, but I like them, they are retro cool, and I'm determined to figure out a way to use them. I don't know for certain, but my guess is that these finned things were part of a kit for upgrading the oil system on the earlier engines.

Has anybody here seen a set of these before?

Need to find lighter springs for these shocks. I got them off of eBay and they were originally on the front of a snowmobile. There's a good chance I won't end up being able to use them, but at least they will make it possible for me to roll the bike around.

Schwany said:

Lucky you on the barrels. I'm impressed. That finned thing on the side of the head for oiling the spindles is retro different. Probably a good oil feeder.

I'm still feeding my rocker spindles on the old head from the top. I used the JSM rocker spindle covers. The spindles won't ever spin with those on it. My rocker spindles are notched. However, I replaced them a long time ago. I can't remember if the ones I pulled out were smooth faced.

Here's my whiny little baby part. My motor runs hot as hell with all those parts in it. My bores are +.040 and at the tight JSM spec. I'm interested in how yours runs as far as heat goes once you get it in the frame. I think I must have done something wrong. Either timing is not right, or the motor is too tight, or I washed the cylinders cuz I had a hell of a time keeping the motor running initially. Carburetors were set too lean and I had a loose header pipe that made it pop like a kettle corn machine. Enough crying.

Is your motor still a 750 or now an 850?

Click to expand...

The JS parts / spec don’t cause hot running. Something else must be causing it on yours. Maybe still weak? Ign retarded?

Junglebiker said:

Still a 750. Stock 73mm bore.

The finned thing on the head is the piece of "vintage Webco" I referred to earlier, so congrats, you win many kudos. I've never seen a set for a Norton before, just for Triumphs. In all honesty I don't need them, but I like them, they are retro cool, and I'm determined to figure out a way to use them. I don't know for certain, but my guess is that these finned things were part of a kit for upgrading the oil system on the earlier engines.

Has anybody here seen a set of these before?

Click to expand...

Back in the day Dunstall made those finned covers for Atlas and Commandos.

And you can get repops

Junglebiker said:

Still a 750. Stock 73mm bore.

The finned thing on the head is the piece of "vintage Webco" I referred to earlier, so congrats, you win many kudos. I've never seen a set for a Norton before, just for Triumphs. In all honesty I don't need them, but I like them, they are retro cool, and I'm determined to figure out a way to use them. I don't know for certain, but my guess is that these finned things were part of a kit for upgrading the oil system on the earlier engines.

Has anybody here seen a set of these before?

Click to expand...

I think I saw a set somewhere in the past - they are cool. My Combat came with finned valve covers and a points cover - I think they are cool - throw back to the 60’s & 70’s. Not for everyone, but that is okay.

I've yet to see a set of rocker oilers like mine. The eBay seller I bought them from said they were Webco, but who can say? There's no markings on them. They are not super high quality, no real effort was made to make them "blend" into the head, for example, but their apparent rarity is enough to make my engine look a little different, and that's enough for me.

Webco made stuff like that, I have seen them mainly for Triumph but they did Norton and BSA too.

Got the engine in today. Having heard a few horror stories about installing a P11 eninge, I decided to try my own way! First I set the engine in the frame with no mounting plates. Then I took the left plate and installed it loosely. I learned pretty quickly that the bottom most bolt that sits between the frame rails has to be installed first.



Eventually they were all in and then I went ahead and installed the other engine plate.



Then I checked to make sure the transmission would fit:


No problems there, so the transmission was installed and all the bolts snugged down.


Except for 2--the long one that runs through both lower frame rails and the plate and the engine, I still need to find one of those, and also this one--later I'll get on the lathe and make up spacers to fill the gaps in both of these areas:


Ever curious, I went ahead and checked the fit of my primary drive casing. I had to free up the sliding panel that fits around the output shaft, but it moves freely now. I did run into one problem, though. Among the various parts I had, I found a circular spacer that was stamped "P11 OUT". It was obviously intended to fit between the primary drive and the crankcase, so I installed it there. Even so, I still had this problem:


This is an original P11 crankcase, and the primary drive case was sold to me as a P11 part, but the shape of the crankcase interferes with the primary drive casing so that the pieces won't fit together properly. To me it looks like there needs to be a thicker spacer in there. But then the transmission seems like it doesn't quite line up. What was in there originally? Also, has anyone got a picture of the bolt and assorted parts that apparently starts at the engine mounting plate, probably runs through a spacer, through the primary drive case and then probably to the footpeg?

At 71 I found lifting that motor fully assembled and getting it in the frame was beyond my capability. I could pick it up, but it had more control over me than I over it. Well done. Also was not aware that the gearbox would fit with the motor in the frame. P11 Red book implies it goes back in first. Thanks for showing that where there is a will there is a way to get it back in after the motor is in.

Spacers galore on the P11. The two up front are equal thickness. Many of the others are not. One side uses a thinner spacer than the other. And there is not that much consistency. I should have taken pics. Somebody like Ron L may have a pic or two showing what spacers go where.

The spacer behind the inner primary is a fatty and close to 1/4" thick. If I can get to it I'll let you know how thick the original is.

I have the original piece for the foot peg. I didn't use it. Mine is a threaded rod with home made spacers now. I'll take a pic of the original later and post it. Andover has that part and many others for the P11. Not cheap though.

Good to know about the spacer between the primary drive case and the crankcase--I can make one on the lathe, if I can find a piece of alumin(i)um that big around. Seems odd to me that the one I have is only 1/8" thick. The fact that it is stamped like an old aftermarket part makes me wonder if it was maybe intended to be used along with the thicker one?

I need to spend some time on parts diagrams.

I will almost certainly make the missing footpeg part--as my original footpeg assemblies are missing completely, (as well as the original brake lever and assorted parts) I was thinking I might take advantage of the situation and make ones that are a little lower and therefore more suited to my height. Might rear set them a bit as well.

Nevertheless, I would appreciate a pic of your original one. That will at least give me some idea of how far off my imagination is from reality.

Re: the way the trans fits with the engine in place--the engine mounting plates I have are apparently newly manufactured and are made out of 6061 alumin(i)um. I do not have the originals to compare them to, so I can't say for sure, but maybe the new made engine mounting plates have more clearance around the transmission?

Junglebiker said:

Also, has anyone got a picture of the bolt and assorted parts that apparently starts at the engine mounting plate, probably runs through a spacer, through the primary drive case and then probably to the footpeg?

Click to expand...

Here you go: