More charging info

With both the DC shunting regulator and the AC shunting regulator (which you are calling “shorting”), there is an AC current flowing through a circuit.

The AC shorting regulator can avoid some of the heat buildup in the reg/rec box, because the current does not have to pass through the rectifier. Rectifiers have resistance and voltage drop, so they get warm when they pass current.

The DC shunting regulator requires the AC current to pass through the rectifier as well as the regulator transistor. That could generate more heat in the reg/rec box than the AC shorting type.

I used a lot of “can” and “could” because it must depend on circuit design and component specs.

If the AC shorting type has less resistance to the AC current than the DC shorting type, then it could allow the AC current to be greater. That current goes through the stator coils, so there could be more heat.

The above may show no disagreement with what Gtiller said. On the other hand, my 12 A stator shows a resistance value so low that I can’t easily see it on a digital meter. It’s a sort of erratic 0.1 ohm.

Using Ohm’s Law (V=IR), voltage drop across the stator is 12 x 0.1 = 1.2 volts.

Power is W=IV. 12 x 1.2 = 14.4 W.

14.4 watts is less power than a brake light bulb.

Is there physics that says my 0.1 ohm is not valid once magnets start spinning past coils? I wouldn’t be all that surprised. Where’s Milly Henry when you need her!

I found it interesting that the measured AC current on my own bike was the same (reading an analogue meter) whether the lights were on or off.

Political?

The Zener diode is the Brexit Party.

The Shindengen is the billionaire elite that cuts off poor people’s supplies of electrons.

<sigh> I'll do the best I can here.

First, you guys need to differentiate between voltage and current.

Fast Eddie said:

Shunting type regulator, excess current is shunted to somewhere where it is then disposed of as heat. This leads to heat build up in the regulator body / heat sink.

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Yes. A zener is the classic example of that. When the zener's threshold is reached it "turns on" and clamps the voltage to a maximum value. Current flows through the zener and it heats up. The alternator also heats up, as it's supplying that current.

Fast Eddie said:

Shorting type regulator, excess current is ‘switched off’ by shorting the stator coils. Being shorted, there is still some generation taking place. This leads to heat build up in the stator.

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A shorting regulator is another type of shunt regulator. When the threshold voltage is reached solid state devices (SCR's or MOSFET's) turn on briefly at the peaks of the AC waveform and pull the voltage down to the control voltage. Current flows through the switching devices and they heat up. MOSFET's much less, because their ON voltage is much lower than an SCR. Again, the alternator has to supply that current and it will heat up.

Fast Eddie said:

Open type regulator, (like the SH775), excess current is ’switched off’ at source by ‘opening the circuit’ of the stator coils. With no circuit, there’s no generation and thus no (or little) heat.

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True. Except that when "ON" the switching devices are supplying current and will heat up. There's no free lunch.

Looks like unless we use the open type rectifier we using one shot stators, which we know is not the case. In the paper in post #33 look at the size of the alternator, and the graph of the internal current when the coils are shorted, it is very low. The laws don't change if the alternator is fully loaded at max output, the resistance in the stator and thus heat generated in it is at its max. Short the output the same law applies but the voltage is next to nothing and the load has dropped as it only can see its internal load, not internal and rectifier load. If the stator can handle the heat as max output it can handle the heat when shorted, the internal load ( resistance) of the stator itself does not change as output changes. With the coils shorted, the heat generated is far less than when they are not outputting to support a high load. That is why it does not melt at max output or when the coils are shorted.
Will an RM23 support a Shorai at tickover, of course with a decent rectifier. Feel free to come and measure my voltage at tickover.

It's voltage at tickover on the other side of town at night that might be a problem with the rm23. If you never get into that situation, no need to worry about it.
I seem to get into some real jackpots.
Like the time we took 3 Vincents and a Commando on a 800 mile run, much of it on gravel. It was to be daytime running only, but a visiting rider from the UK crashed and broke his spine.
Getting the ambulance etc made us late ( how dare he!)
so we had about 150 miles of night riding to do and one congested city to get thru
The one Vincent had 6 volt lighting of about 12 candle power, the other lost its dynamo. They huddled in tight alongside and tried to see using my Norton headlight.
At 70 mph in the mountains!
And 3 mph in the city.
They complained afterward that the Norton headlight wasn't very good!
I still chuckle about that part.

Glen

Madnorton said:

Will an RM23 support a Shorai at tickover, of course with a decent rectifier. Feel free to come and measure my voltage at tickover.

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Are you measuring your voltage with or without the battery connected to the circuit? Ideally, the output should be over 13.1 volts straight out of the regulator without the battery connected.

Good stuff guys. I’m glad this ain’t gonna be an exam question… but I am learning…!

I am interested for two practical reasons. Reasons 1 is my Norton, Reason 2 is my Vin engine.

Both are e-start, and are big lumps (920 and 1330 respectively) and neither have the option of kick starting, so require a stout battery. A LA or AGM of the oomph required would be of a weight that I just don’t want. Hence my position on Shoria’s.

The Norton has a 3 phase 14.5 amp stator so I am very convinced it will more than adequately charge the Shorai at anything above tickover (maybe even then). But as it has LED lights etc, I just want to be sure there is no danger from that imbalance when the battery has been fully charged in use.

The Vin has a 150w external Alton alternator, I don’t know anything about its voltage output at given rpm, I’ll try and get info on this from Alton (but won’t hold my breath) so with this, I want to be confident it is able to charge the Shorai fully.

Learned opinions on the above greatly received…

@Fast Eddie - My opinion - FWIW:

As long as your riding habits can keep the battery voltage from dipping to 13.1 volts - and not charge at over 14.8 volts - you can make a Shorai survive.

I recommend installing a voltmeter that allows you to keep track of these things, and adjust your loads accordingly to keep the battery happy (i.e. turn off the headlight when idling for extended period, etc).

Seems to be working for me.

Fast Eddie said:

Volts being used to charge the battery at different rpm (back to the topic of low rpm running at night).

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I’ve ordered a little voltmeter that goes in the fag lighter socket (beside the ashtray).

Fag lighters and ash trays? Your bikes are obviously somewhat better equipped than mine (not that difficult to achieve in all honesty).

I did used to have an LED battery status monitor widget on the Norton and that certainly showed ample charging. So I think we’re good there.

The Vin has an ammeter, I had assumed that so long as the needle is in the + side then it is charging. Am I correct?

If I were to fit a volt meter, am I wanting it to show me the voltage status of the battery, or the voltage coming out of the regulator? And whichever it is, how is it best to wire one in?

Fast Eddie said:

Good stuff guys. I’m glad this ain’t gonna be an exam question… but I am learning…!

I am interested for two practical reasons. Reasons 1 is my Norton, Reason 2 is my Vin engine.

Both are e-start, and are big lumps (920 and 1330 respectively) and neither have the option of kick starting, so require a stout battery. A LA or AGM of the oomph required would be of a weight that I just don’t want. Hence my position on Shoria’s.

The Norton has a 3 phase 14.5 amp stator so I am very convinced it will more than adequately charge the Shorai at anything above tickover (maybe even then). But as it has LED lights etc, I just want to be sure there is no danger from that imbalance when the battery has been fully charged in use.

The Vin has a 150w external Alton alternator, I don’t know anything about its voltage output at given rpm, I’ll try and get info on this from Alton (but won’t hold my breath) so with this, I want to be confident it is able to charge the Shorai fully.

Learned opinions on the above greatly received…

Click to expand...

I will give you my not so learned but enthusiastic and decidedly amateur experience with a HO RM23 and a 18ah Shorai.

When I built the bike I was using a 60/55w halogen, run all the time with incandescent turn signals and an LED tail light. Seemed all good. My incandescent instrument bulbs were dim as.

Then I bought a LED headlamp, instrument bulbs and a LED BSM from Goffy. The instrument bulbs were better. The headlight was brighter, but the beam less focused. The BSM was green on idle from shortly after starting and was green even when splitting traffic (filtering) and running my indictor constantly. All good right?

I had a couple of issues with primary leaks that required me to open it up more frequently than at all normal, and one odd observation I had was that the ATF was always pretty brown, and that was surprising to me.

Also, the protective sheathing around the output wires all had cracked and dried out. This was surprising to me as this RM23 was new on rebuild about four years ago.

At the beginning of the year my similarly aged Pod died and now have a TS Mosfet unit. I knew it was dead from the BSM. Yay!

Upon reflection now, I am beginning to wonder if I am producing too much power and the heat from the RM23 has contributed to the ATF color, the wires becoming brittle and the PODs untimely death?

Maybe I should install an electric leg and/or go back to my halogen headlamp?

gortnipper said:

I will give you my not so learned but enthusiastic and decidedly amateur experience with a HO RM23 and a 18ah Shorai.

When I built the bike I was using a 60/55w halogen, run all the time with incandescent turn signals and an LED tail light. Seemed all good. My incandescent instrument bulbs were dim as.

Then I bought a LED headlamp, instrument bulbs and a LED BSM from Goffy. The instrument bulbs were better. The headlight was brighter, but the beam less focused. The BSM was green on idle from shortly after starting and was green even when splitting traffic (filtering) and running my indictor constantly. All good right?

I had a couple of issues with primary leaks that required me to open it up more frequently than at all normal, and one odd observation I had was that the ATF was always pretty brown, and that was surprising to me.

Also, the protective sheathing around the output wires all had cracked and dried out. This was surprising to me as this RM23 was new on rebuild about four years ago.

At the beginning of the year my similarly aged Pod died and now have a TS Mosfet unit. I knew it was dead from the BSM. Yay!

Upon reflection now, I am beginning to wonder if I am producing too much power and the heat from the RM23 has contributed to the ATF color, the wires becoming brittle and the PODs untimely death?

Maybe I should install an electric leg and/or go back to my halogen headlamp?

Click to expand...

Gortnipper , I'm getting by with the rm23 and 60watt halogen headlight.
I also run a heated vest in Spring and Fall.
I was hellbent for Leds everywhere on that bike, however after considering Grants info, and your post, maybe not so fast.
The RM23 handles all of that now with a big old lead acid battery to take up the slack.
This particular H4 halogen/lens/reflector combo is terrific for night riding.

Glen

worntorn said:

Gortnipper , I'm getting by with the rm23 and 60watt halogen headlight.
I also run a heated vest in Spring and Fall.
I was hellbent for Leds everywhere on that bike, however after considering Grants info, and your post, maybe not so fast.
The RM23 handles all of that now with a big old lead acid battery to take up the slack.
This particular H4 halogen/lens/reflector combo is terrific for night riding.

Glen

Click to expand...

What reflector/lens?

When I did the rebuild, I looked into a replacement H4 halogen solution as I have a BPF reflector/lens, but just went with the halogen for the BPF.

The LED is A LOT brighter. But the beam pattern is not great.

The lens is a new one supplied by Walridge. The old original was whitish and gave very poor light, even with the H4 halogen.
The reflector is still the original factory item.
I'll have a look at the lens to see if there is a make and model shown.
My experience to date with the LED headlights is similar to yours, lots of light but don't try riding much over 40 mph at night. Will try the daylighter 2 in another bike.


Glen

Fast Eddie said:

Fag lighters and ash trays? Your bikes are obviously somewhat better equipped than mine (not that difficult to achieve in all honesty).

I did used to have an LED battery status monitor widget on the Norton and that certainly showed ample charging. So I think we’re good there.

The Vin has an ammeter, I had assumed that so long as the needle is in the + side then it is charging. Am I correct?

If I were to fit a volt meter, am I wanting it to show me the voltage status of the battery, or the voltage coming out of the regulator? And whichever it is, how is it best to wire one in?

Click to expand...

The luxury cigar lighter socket was fitted for phone charging, heated vest and satnav, though I’ve hardly ever used it in anger.

If you have an ammeter, a quick test of the charging system is to switch the headlight on while the engine is idling slowly. The needle should go deep into the discharge side. Then rev the engine and the needle should move back at least as far as the centre zero. It will go farther, into the charge side, if the battery needs a charge. Go for a steady ride and that charge indication will slowly sink back towards zero, as the battery becomes fully charged.

All that assumes you have a good battery and an effective regulator. A tired old battery may take a charge forever, so the ammeter needle stays in the charge side, even on a long run. A regulator or Zener that regulates to too high a voltage may have a similar effect.

Also- the old 6 V 3-wire alternators with coil switching and no regulator appeared to keep the needle in the charge side forever on long runs.

A Voltmeter should be wired between battery return (could be somewhere on the bike frame) and something that becomes live when you turn the key switch on. On a bike with points and coil, that could be the switch side of the ignition coil.

gortnipper said:

I will give you my not so learned but enthusiastic and decidedly amateur experience with a HO RM23 and a 18ah Shorai.

When I built the bike I was using a 60/55w halogen, run all the time with incandescent turn signals and an LED tail light. Seemed all good. My incandescent instrument bulbs were dim as.

Then I bought a LED headlamp, instrument bulbs and a LED BSM from Goffy. The instrument bulbs were better. The headlight was brighter, but the beam less focused. The BSM was green on idle from shortly after starting and was green even when splitting traffic (filtering) and running my indictor constantly. All good right?

I had a couple of issues with primary leaks that required me to open it up more frequently than at all normal, and one odd observation I had was that the ATF was always pretty brown, and that was surprising to me.

Also, the protective sheathing around the output wires all had cracked and dried out. This was surprising to me as this RM23 was new on rebuild about four years ago.

At the beginning of the year my similarly aged Pod died and now have a TS Mosfet unit. I knew it was dead from the BSM. Yay!

Upon reflection now, I am beginning to wonder if I am producing too much power and the heat from the RM23 has contributed to the ATF color, the wires becoming brittle and the PODs untimely death?

Maybe I should install an electric leg and/or go back to my halogen headlamp?

Click to expand...

That wire sheathing on new alternators always degrades in oil, last a bit longer in the dry but will still degrade eventually, it’s just not fit for purpose sadly. So that isn’t clear proof of hot wires etc.

The TS MOSFET does look good, even if you are producing more power than needed I believe the TS MOSFET will handle it comfortably.

Triton Thrasher said:

The luxury cigar lighter socket was fitted for phone charging, heated vest and satnav, though I’ve hardly ever used it in anger.

If you have an ammeter, a quick test of the charging system is to switch the headlight on while the engine is idling slowly. The needle should go deep into the discharge side. Then rev the engine and the needle should move back at least as far as the centre zero. It will go farther, into the charge side, if the battery needs a charge. Go for a steady ride and that charge indication will slowly sink back towards zero, as the battery becomes fully charged.

All that assumes you have a good battery and an effective regulator. A tired old battery may take a charge forever, so the ammeter needle stays in the charge side, even on a long run. A regulator or Zener that regulates to too high a voltage may have a similar effect.

Also- the old 6 V 3-wire alternators with coil switching and no regulator appeared to keep the needle in the charge side forever on long runs.

A Voltmeter should be wired between battery return (could be somewhere on the bike frame) and something that becomes live when you turn the key switch on. On a bike with points and coil, that could be the switch side of the ignition coil.

Click to expand...

I thought the ammeter was showing me the status of the charging system (output vs consumption), but you’re saying it basically shows the battery status ?

My take is the two go hand in hand, but... the ammeter IS still basically a charging monitor.
If the charging system is naff, there'll be no 'charging' reading as the battery slowly decays without the benefit of being topped up..
With a good battery, and working charging system, the charging will register for a short while, but longer for a poor battery, or maybe not balance at all. From observing these charging 'needs' we determine the battery condition, no?
OE systems should have been designed to 'balance' both sides under 'normal' conditions (whatever they are!), but by adding 'modern' components we move the fulcrum and upset that balance, though I'm sure the brains out there can/will crunch the necessary numbers to get things back to near 'normal'.

Fast Eddie said:

I thought the ammeter was showing me the status of the charging system (output vs consumption), but you’re saying it basically shows the battery status ?

Click to expand...

The ammeter shows whether the battery is being charged or is discharging.

Fast Eddie said:

I thought the ammeter was showing me the status of the charging system (output vs consumption), but you’re saying it basically shows the battery status ?

Click to expand...

It shows both. As TT said, it shows if the battery is being charged or discharged, which is an indicator of the charging system. It also shows the health of the battery. A battery that will not accept a charge because of sulfited plates will show low or no current at speed, and a battery with a shorted cell will show excessive current. Since the battery is the most failure prone component in the the electrical system, an ammeter is the best indicator of what's going on. But ammeters are expensive to install (big wires) so they were replaced in OEM applications with voltmeters or silly WLA's. Fortunately for us with systems that rely on the battery at idle, a voltmeter is just as useful and easier to deal with.