Uprated charging system

Hear it are, chaps...

Hi JD,

Thanks for contacting us.
The company name was simply made up by us (some 10 years ago).
We were looking for a short unique word/name, but one that was also available as a website name.
Many website names we tried were already taken, but all the Pazon website addresses (.com, co.uk, etc.) were available.
So we went with that.

Yes, sometime later we realized that the name spelt backwards reads 'nozap'.
However, our reliability record (backed up by our 7½ year warranty) suggests that we are indeed the opposite of 'nozap'.

Best regards,
Regards,
Andy Perkins
Pazon Ignitions Ltd.
Keeping Classic Bikes on the Road
www.pazon.com

texasSlick said:

B-Bogus raises a red flag in that a greater output alternator, with a Zener Diode regulator, could exceed the wattage of the Zener, causing it to fail.

Slick

Click to expand...

When I bought the Lucas Powerbase kit in the late '70s it came with a matched pair of Zener diodes and a wiring harness and they had you drill the right side Z-plate for mounting the 2nd Zener. Still working fine.

Sorry to leave it so long since my last post, some very interesting comments here, thanks to all who have added their knowledge and experiences.

I finely went with the Lucas podtronics three phase high output kit from Andover, brought from Mick Hemmings, hello Angela, hope you had a good holiday as well!.

I cant fit to the Interstate yet, so many things getting in the way!, but will give an update when its up and running, I may well add a couple of running lamps as well.

Later, I plan on fitting a Boyer power box, will leave the podtronic in place, as a back up.

All the best,

John

I've been using a Wassell 3 phase high output alternator with a Sparx regulator (and Boyer Power Box) with great success. Halogen lamp no problem!

Yes, a better headlight will be on top of my list, it will be nice to have enough power, electrical!, to add what I want, running lights and such like.

Glad to hear you're system is a great success phillyskip, have you tried running without the battery?, just through the powerbox?,

John

MKV750/John, how did you make out with your charging system? I learned a few things along the way since posting that I'd be installing a larger (200W) alternator, so here's some pictures to save the typing:

View of the regulator/rectifier unit from Old Britts http://www.oldbritts.com/17_17106.html which has done an admirable job, both with the stock and aftermarket alternators

In the interest of ease of installation and reversibility, the regulator unit plugs into the stock harness in place of the existing rectifier. The Zener is unplugged at the Z-plate, as all regulation is done by the finned unit.
In the background, you can just make out the separate fuse http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Catal ... 0361083694 and return wire for the headlight. More on that subject in a minute...

In this image are the two relays used to drive the headlamp. Also from NAPA (http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Catal ... 0347577501 They're small, relatively cheap, use easily-obtainable spade connectors, and are made for continuous operation. 'Stuck 'em down with double-sticky foam tape. As with the regulator, all connectors were tailored to interface with the stock harness. That is, the hi/lo wires were routed to the relays through stock bullets on one end, then spade connectors on the other. That way, the only thing the hi/lo switch has to handle is the current required to trip the relays. The headlamp harness proper doesn't connect anywhere except the battery, nothing special had to be done to the stock harness for that. Granted, two wires had to be snaked through the cable jacket from the backbone into the headlamp shell, but all that juice is now off of the main harness and ignition switch.


I went with a Hella lamp assembly that allows the use of a common H4 60/55W halogen bulb. These bulbs can be found at any auto parts store, so no worries about traveling away from home without one.
With the new upgrades, evening rides are amazingly relaxed, as country roads no longer seem as if I'm playing some psychotic video game where every shadow holds instant death!


...back to the new headlamp fuse; after noticing the stock fuse holder warmer that I supposed it should be, plus a couple of fuses blown over a period of time, got me to reviewing how I'd wired the headlamp into the circuit. If the headlamp is wired directly to the battery, then all the power from the alternator to run the headlamp, plus charge the battery, is now coursing through the stock fuse. Based on this, I surmised that a move to the main harness from a tap near the regulator unit might be the way to go.
In the schematic, the original connection was on the right at the battery, then it was moved to where the "blue light" would normally go (on the INTERPOL?)


Here, you can see where the spare tap was found, and it comes directly from the main line coming from the regulator.

Now, all the current to run the headlamp comes directly from the output of the regulator, and only "make-up" current has to back-stream through the main fuse. System much happier!

I thought about picking it up from the now-unused Zener plug, but the thought of snaking a wire from the battery box to the right Z-plate wasn't too appealing.

ML said:

ML said:

I got one 2 weeks ago, but used the original rotor as the magnets seemed good and it put out 14.7V -( you have to uprate the regulator & rectifier above the original 120W RM21) - but checking it the other day, I'm suspecting its gone bad....sub 12V AC from the wires off the stator at 3,000RPM. No visible burn marks on the unit, so I'm checking out the whole unit it this weekend.

Click to expand...

checked it out - no problem, human error.

Click to expand...

So, what was the trouble, without exposing too much? My voltage below 2500 rpm isn't quite what I hoped it would be, but it's still better than stock. Your insight could help others.

Thanks,
Nathan

B+Bogus said:

the alternator will always deliver current as a function of the engine speed. What the system doesn't need gets dumped into the heatsink, so effectively we're riding a very inefficient heater most of the time.
The more powerful the alternator the more engine power it absorbs - regardless of whether it's used by the system or dumped into the frame, it's just a waste of petrol.

Click to expand...

This statement is absolutely true for a ZENER controlled charging system. However, a modern regulator can switch the stator coils ON and OFF, with a duty cycle that is feedback controlled. Such a system does not generate more energy than is demanded by the load and battery recovery. I am not an expert on the internal workings of the Boyer PowerBox or its' PodTronics equivalent, but it is my suspicion they work exactly that way ( on/off). I have just installed a Podtronics, have not fired it up yet, but the instructions do not say it must be heat sinked, but only mounted in a non-confined place.

For the last 50 years, I have been controlling my stator output using the ON/OFF method....the feedback circuit was my own brain switching a toggle switch, while observing the brightness of the lights.
Crude yes, but no battery boil-overs have occurred since the first one which wiped out the chrome on the primary case and left silencer.

B+Bogus said:

Modern charging systems only generate what the system demands by closed loop control of non-permanent electro-magnets (hence why car alternators can be spun by hand), so if someone could do that for a Commando, I'd be interested

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The permanent magnet rotors in our Nortons cannot be so controlled, but the on/off stator coils can accomplish the same thing.

Slick

http://www.britcycle.com/Products/33313 ... torKit.htm

I used this one for years. The only negative I can say about it is that the wires get fragile over time.

Hello all, sorry to bring back this thread, which I started, with such a late reply!!, many thanks to all who contributed.

Nater-potater, thanks for you're very interesting and informative post, I shall study you're modifications more closely, sorry for my ridiculously late reply, I had other things drag me away from the Norton, then a period of illness, just getting back to it now, so no electrical work yet!, and the list of other jobs on the Norton seems to be expanding each time I look at it.....

I shall post an update once its all back together.

I shall be converting it to negative earth as well, so there will be a few alterations from standard.

Thanks,

John

Glad to see you're back with us! I hope things went well for you over the winter.

Since your last post, an LED headlamp bulb was installed, a voltage monitor went into the assimilator position, and the laternator was converted back to the original 120W stator. Here's where that starts permanent-solution-dim-commando-headlight-t20361-15.html, and the entire link has lots of good info in it. There's also others that have been installing their own concoction of LED winkers and even instrument illumination. Jean did a bang-up job on modifying some "non-Norton" winkers, but the same can be done for anything (even cars). diy-led-lights-cheap-t21177.html
As he pointed out, they can be made to work with either negative or positive earth, as they're isolated. Jeez, it won't be long before there's not one incandescent bulb left on my bike!

Nathan

Thanks Nathan, winter here has been wet, but mild, not really like winter at all!.

Good links, thanks, LED's are the way to go I think, will be fitting some to mine, indicators, rear light for sure.

Could I ask why you have gone back to the 120w stator Nathan?,

John

mkv750 said:

Could I ask why you have gone back to the 120w stator Nathan?,

John

Click to expand...

As with so many things in life, the single-phase alternator is a compromise, and that falls between voltage and current output. Until you go to multiple taps (3-phase), if you re-wind the stator for greater current output, it'll suffer from low voltage at low RPMs, and vise-versa.
Since converting to an LED headlamp, the need for extra current was gone, and I'm now more concerned with keeping the voltage up whilst idling around town and stopped at traffic lights. I have one on my route to work that can keep me stopped for close to three minutes! With headlight, turn signals, tail light, and ignition coils all putting a demand on the charging system, the high-output single-phase stator would let the voltage drop low enough that the engine would begin to sputter.

Nathan

Hi Nathan. Converting to all LED re "...Jeez, it won't be long before there's not one incandescent bulb left on my bike!..." is how I stayed with my original stator and overcame the current draw / voltage drop at idle. All the juice is now available for the ignition system!

I miss the logic of replacing a 200 watt single phase stator with a 120 watt single phase stator.
I get the idea that replacing incandescent bulbs with LEDs will help keep up the voltage.
But I don't see how lowering the wattage of the stator increases the voltage to the ignition.
Explanation please.

Stephen Hill


Nathan writes: "As with so many things in life, the single-phase alternator is a compromise, and that falls between voltage and current output. Until you go to multiple taps (3-phase), if you re-wind the stator for greater current output, it'll suffer from low voltage at low RPMs, and vise-versa. Since converting to an LED headlamp, the need for extra current was gone, and I'm now more concerned with keeping the voltage up whilst idling around town and stopped at traffic lights. I have one on my route to work that can keep me stopped for close to three minutes! With headlight, turn signals, tail light, and ignition coils all putting a demand on the charging system, the high-output single-phase stator would let the voltage drop low enough that the engine would begin to sputter."

I fitted a180watt stator and rotor pair (Wassell) and a solid state rectifyier/regulator (Podtronics I think) and new Motobatt, bullet proof on my MK3. BTW, as the battery charges, the internal resistance increases and the current flow drops, it doesn't switch on or off, when the the voltages are matched, no current will flow. I also run a H4 50/65 and it works fine albeit the wiring gets warm. I am going to try a LED lamp on MK3 #2 with the view to upgrading the first bike when tested and sorted. I can leave the bike for 2 months, tickle the carbs and hit the start button and it fires up no problem. These parts were all the cheapest available

Stephen Hill said:

But I don't see how lowering the wattage of the stator increases the voltage to the ignition.
Explanation please.

Stephen Hill

Click to expand...

It does seem counter-intuitive, I'll admit.
Here's the problem; in the single-phase mode, there's only so much energy that can be had by the interaction between the magnets and stator windings. If you were to go with long lengths of relatively fine wire, you'd get good voltage at low RPMs, but the small wire would limit the maximum current that could be had as the RPMs go up. This is where we are with the stock unit.
Now, if we want more power from this unit (read; more amps), we have to re-wind with a heavier gauge wire. This allows more current through, as what we get with the high-output stator. The downside is that the fewer windings now have less interaction with the magnets, thus dropping the voltage at lower RPM. Therefore, the only way to get the best of both worlds in the stock footprint is to utilize more of the poles at any one time (three-phase). This allows the coils to be wound with small-gauge wire for good magnetic reactance, yet triple the total current potential over any single set of coils.
Now, you'll notice the three-phase doesn't produce three times the output of the single-phase, yet it's known for being able to supply a charging current even at an idle. Without knowing for sure, but, based on the prior statements, I'd venture that the stator is wired with something even finer than the stock single-phase. Since max output is no longer as much of a concern (with three sets of coils all working together), they can focus more on low RPM charging characteristics. Best of both worlds!
The only other out would be to manufacture a completely new stator that had many more poles, then add an equal ratio number of magnets to the rotor, but then you've exceeded the cost/complexity of the three-phase system. I believe Comnoz has done something like this to support his wild array of fuel pumps, injectors, gyros, and rail guns mounted to his ride.

Nathan

So a larger wattage stator will produce a higher output at higher rpm's. And a smaller wattage stator will produce a higher output at lower rpm's.
I didn't know that. I just bought a 200 watt stator so I could run my H4 headlight around town without drawing down my battery and getting the low voltage Boyer blues. At higher rpms's on the highway it is not an issue.

Is there consensus on this?

Stephen Hill

Hi Stephen.
Re: 'Is there consensus on this?'
Not from me until you can provided supporting evidence to prove your assertion.
Regardless of the stator you use the rotor is the constant at whatever revs you test at.
It is harder to boost the magnetic field number and strength in the rotor than fiddle with windings - maybe multiple rows of rare earth magnets? We have the technology - but why bother? Perhaps chose to reduce current draw requirements rather than increase output (the more amps you have, the more you find gadgets to consume it and reduce engine power).

It was a question. There was no assertion.

Stephen Hill

Stephen Hill said:

So a larger wattage stator will produce a higher output at higher rpm's. And a smaller wattage stator will produce a higher output at lower rpm's.
I didn't know that. I just bought a 200 watt stator so I could run my H4 headlight around town without drawing down my battery and getting the low voltage Boyer blues.

Stephen Hill

Click to expand...

It goes a little deeper than mere total wattage output; engine RPM plays a bigger part than simply saying that it'll put out more at higher RPM (which any stator will do). There also has to be consideration as to where in the RPM band you want to see the greatest gains. In my case, it was low RPMS. I'll borrow from the work done by Luke at ADV Rider, where he did an extensive test regimine in an effort to get more usable output from his dual sport:

"We could try increasing the number of turns in the windings. How about 20% more, say 360 total. Our OC voltage goes up, now it's 36V at idle. Unfortunatly our SC current goes down to 5A and our resistance goes up to 7.2ohms. So now our output power at idle is (36V-15V)/7.2ohms or 2.9Amps. Oops. At 2400rpm we get 4A. Also no good.

Let's go the other way to the extreme. Cut the number of windings in half to 150. Now we get absolutely nothing at idle. But, we get 6A at 2400 rpm, 8A at 3600rpm. Hello. Stick a battery on this thing and we can now run a 60W bulb (just don't get stuck in traffic).

What are we doing here? By changing the number of windings, we are changing the engine speed where the output power is optimized. With our +20% example, the power is optimized at 1000rpm, where we never run. With our -50% example, the power is optimized at 2400rpm. At lower engine speeds we give up power, but at higher speeds we get much more."

His full article is here http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189734 and he has the data to back it up. I did some similar testing between the stock and 200W stators; I'll try to get that posted soon.

Nathan