Uprated charging system

JimNH · Apr 12, 2014

I found the Sparx 3 phase here:
http://www.clubmanracing.com/mainpower.php

The real advantage of the 3 phase is the low RPM output, especially for an E-start. A few short low speed runs will leave the battery down a bit.

concours · Apr 12, 2014

JimNH said:
I found the Sparx 3 phase here:
http://www.clubmanracing.com/mainpower.php

The real advantage of the 3 phase is the low RPM output, especially for an E-start. A few short low speed runs will leave the battery down a bit.

Hi Jim, welcome. Some of the (early?) sparx had reliability issues, some others here have posted about it. :idea:

JimNH · Apr 12, 2014

concours said:
JimNH said:

I found the Sparx 3 phase here:
http://www.clubmanracing.com/mainpower.php

The real advantage of the 3 phase is the low RPM output, especially for an E-start. A few short low speed runs will leave the battery down a bit.

Click to expand...

Hi Jim, welcome. Some of the (early?) sparx had reliability issues, some others here have posted about it. :idea:

Thanks for the welcome. I'm re-restoring my MKIII after a 20 year rest. Hopefully the Sparks alternator will prove to be one of the good ones.

A low battery, along with marriage and kids, contributed to its parking as the early Boyer kicked back and locked the sprag. A Pazon has replaced the Boyer.

concours · Apr 12, 2014

JimNH said:
concours said:

JimNH said:

I found the Sparx 3 phase here:
http://www.clubmanracing.com/mainpower.php

The real advantage of the 3 phase is the low RPM output, especially for an E-start. A few short low speed runs will leave the battery down a bit.

Click to expand...

Hi Jim, welcome. Some of the (early?) sparx had reliability issues, some others here have posted about it. :idea:

Click to expand...

Thanks for the welcome. I'm re-restoring my MKIII after a 20 year rest. Hopefully the Sparks alternator will prove to be one of the good ones.

A low battery, along with marriage and kids, contributed to its parking as the early Boyer kicked back and locked the sprag. A Pazon has replaced the Boyer.

Be sure to take LOTS of pics of the resto... before and after. Course, sharin a couple here is always good

jdnort · Apr 17, 2014

Does anyone out there know how the designers/engineers came up with the word "Pazon"? Oddly, Pazon backwards is "nozap". Perhaps they're humorously distancing themselves from Boyer - the opposite of no-zap being Pazon... Nonetheless, other interpretations might suggest more dire implications!
JD

concours · Apr 17, 2014

jdnort said:
Does anyone out there know how the designers/engineers came up with the word "Pazon"? Oddly, Pazon backwards is "nozap". Perhaps they're humorously distancing themselves from Boyer - the opposite of no-zap being Pazon... Nonetheless, other interpretations might suggest more dire implications!
JD

All I know, is if I was naming a new electrical parts company, it would NOT be SPARX!! :shock:

Like a boat company being called "Submerged" !!! :lol:

JimC · Apr 17, 2014

All I know, is if I was naming a new electrical parts company, it would NOT be SPARX!! :shock:

Like a boat company being called "Submerged" !!! :lol:

Now, that's damned funny!

Ibex · Apr 17, 2014

I have always found A O Services (http://www.aoservices.co.uk) very good to deal with and excellent, free advice on electrics on old bikes. Fitted RM24 with Boyer Powerbox to my Commando and Matchless 350 single (converted to 12V and with halogen headlamp and indicators), both from AO. System worked well with both, but unfortunately have had to remove the RM24 from Norton because of fitting an Alton starter with its own alternator. At least I have a spare for the Matchless!
Richard

Nater_Potater · Apr 17, 2014

JimC said:
All I know, is if I was naming a new electrical parts company, it would NOT be SPARX!! :shock:

Like a boat company being called "Submerged" !!! :lol:

Click to expand...

Now, that's damned funny!

+2!
That's right up there with "Spark-O-Matic" car radios.

B+Bogus · Apr 18, 2014

Without wanting to repeat the pros & cons of greater output there's an important consideration regarding the design of the system.

For e-start bikes, the battery will make huge demands on the alternator post-start, and will absorb all the current available until it has recovered.
At other times its main function is to hold up the system voltage when the alternator output cannot.

the alternator will always deliver current as a function of the engine speed. What the system doesn't need gets dumped into the heatsink, so effectively we're riding a very inefficient heater most of the time.
The more powerful the alternator the more engine power it absorbs - regardless of whether it's used by the system or dumped into the frame, it's just a waste of petrol.

Modern charging systems only generate what the system demands by closed loop control of non-permanent electro-magnets (hence why car alternators can be spun by hand), so if someone could do that for a Commando, I'd be interested

Ibex · Apr 18, 2014

I'm sure that you are correct Andy, but the power required to turn the alternator is very, very low compared with the power required to drive the motorcycle forwards.
I would rather sacrifice a minute amount of power and fuel for the reassurance of keeping my battery fully charged and my lights bright.
Richard

davamb · Apr 18, 2014

concours said:
Like a boat company being called "Submerged" !!!

But this is for real: http://www.eclipsesolar.com.au/

B+Bogus said:
the alternator will always deliver current as a function of the engine speed. What the system doesn't need gets dumped into the heatsink, so effectively we're riding a very inefficient heater most of the time.
The more powerful the alternator the more engine power it absorbs - regardless of whether it's used by the system or dumped into the frame, it's just a waste of petrol.

Modern charging systems only generate what the system demands by closed loop control of non-permanent electro-magnets (hence why car alternators can be spun by hand), so if someone could do that for a Commando, I'd be interested

Yep that's true of a shunt regulator such as the original Zener system, but a more modern series-pass regulator will be more efficient. It's not viable to come up with slip-rings and an electro-magnetic rotor (so-called "field coil") for the Commando but it would be possible to develop an AC/DC switch-mode converter with around 90% efficiency at load. I'll give it some thought, but I doubt the complexity will ever provide a decent ROI. 200W is only about 15Amp, not difficult to design at all.

concours · Apr 18, 2014

Nater_Potater said:
JimC said:

All I know, is if I was naming a new electrical parts company, it would NOT be SPARX!! :shock:

Like a boat company being called "Submerged" !!! :lol:

Click to expand...

Now, that's damned funny!

Click to expand...

+2!
That's right up there with "Spark-O-Matic" car radios.

Yup, same idea...

Adrian1 · Apr 18, 2014

So LAP Electrical is the heir to the Lucas throne? Ergo they must be the new Prince of Darkness? :wink:

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Clive Reynolds
Technical Director at LAP Electrical Ltd
Birmingham, United Kingdom | Automotive
Current: Technical Director at LAP Electrical Ltd Past: Production Engineer at Lucas Electrical Ltd Education: Handswort Grammar School, Cherry Orchard

JimC · Apr 18, 2014

I'll give it some thought, but I doubt the complexity will ever provide a decent ROI. 200W is only about 15Amp, not difficult to design at all.

You may be surprised how much British bike owners would pay for a modern charging system. Other than British bikes, were there any other bikes that used the same Lucas charging system? I know Norton owners will pay a lot for a new, modern cylinder head.

texasSlick · Apr 18, 2014

B+Bogus said:
Without wanting to repeat the pros & cons of greater output there's an important consideration regarding the design of the system.

the alternator will always deliver current as a function of the engine speed. What the system doesn't need gets dumped into the heatsink, so effectively we're riding a very inefficient heater most of the time.
The more powerful the alternator the more engine power it absorbs - regardless of whether it's used by the system or dumped into the frame, it's just a waste of petrol.

Modern charging systems only generate what the system demands by closed loop control of non-permanent electro-magnets (hence why car alternators can be spun by hand), so if someone could do that for a Commando, I'd be interested

The comment in paragraph 2 is appropriate for Zener diode voltage regulation. The Boyer PowerBox or similar unit by Podtronics, switch the alternator on/off with a duty cycle necessary to provide the ampere load, and accomplishes a control system much like that described in paragraph 3.

B-Bogus raises a red flag in that a greater output alternator, with a Zener Diode regulator, could exceed the wattage of the Zener, causing it to fail.

Slick

mike996 · Apr 18, 2014

I had the Lucas RM23/tri-spark until I replaced the Lucas with the Alton alternator that came with the Alton E-start kit. The RM23 worked great - it would charge the battery at idle speed (900 RPM on my bike) with no difficulty with the headlight off and at 1200 with it on low beam. Never had the slightest charging/battery issue. As I recall, my old commando, with the oem Lucas alternator, would not charge the batt (headlight off) until the RPM was up around 1500.

Nater_Potater · Apr 18, 2014

texasSlick said:
B+Bogus said:

...the alternator will always deliver current as a function of the engine speed. What the system doesn't need gets dumped into the heatsink, so effectively we're riding a very inefficient heater most of the time.
The more powerful the alternator the more engine power it absorbs - regardless of whether it's used by the system or dumped into the frame, it's just a waste of petrol.

Click to expand...

The comment in paragraph 2 is appropriate for Zener diode voltage regulation. The Boyer PowerBox or similar unit by Podtronics, switch the alternator on/off with a duty cycle necessary to provide the ampere load, and accomplishes a control system much like that described in paragraph 3.

Slick

I always equate the charging systems in these bikes as riding around with the throttle wide open, and controlling your speed with the brakes. The Boyer/Podtronics are much better suited to this environment for the reason pointed out by Slick. Not only for the load on the engine, but the fact that the stator windings aren't running at full current all of the time.

Nathan

B+Bogus · Apr 18, 2014

Nater_Potater said:
I always equate the charging systems in these bikes as riding around with the throttle wide open, and controlling your speed with the brakes.

Nathan

A good analogy!

concours · Apr 19, 2014

B+Bogus said:
Nater_Potater said:

I always equate the charging systems in these bikes as riding around with the throttle wide open, and controlling your speed with the brakes.

Nathan

Click to expand...

A good analogy!

And, if the headlight is burning continually (a must for those of us who enjoy LIVING) then that's less (wasted) current being thrown off as heat by the zener, the zener should last longer

Uprated charging system

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