Trouble at Mill

JimC said:
Just to keep the record straight, it was not me who posted, "let's keep some perspective on this because, as far as I'm aware, it's only US red tape that's holding up the deliveries to the US and Canada." I have a foreboding feeling that Norton is severely undercapitalized and are not able to meet their commitments. I formed this opinion after googling various websites. To say that it is red tape holding up deliveries to the U.S. and Canada seems a bit skeptical, to say the least. I saw nothing in my searches that would substantiate that dictum. Google the phrase, "Norton motorcycle fails to deliver" and see if you still think that red tape is the problem. Granted, some of the information is not current, but I've not found anything that would indicate different.

Certainly, U.S. red tape would not affect deliveries to Canada.
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5 minutes into this video Peter Howes discusses the Canada/US testing and that several countries requirements are being grouped together for the majority of the tests. The video was shot almost 2 years ago at the Lumby Norton Rally July, 2010.

Trouble at Mill
 
Do you really believe that? Each country's testing would be somewhat unique unto itself. To subject your vehicle to the requirements of multiple countries at the same time would put you up against a real mountain.

Come on! The video was pure PR flak. Same bull customers and dealers have been getting for two years.

What I take from this discussion is that some of you think the new Norton may have been homologated in Canada, but not the US, so therefore, Norton is not shipping any bikes to Canada until it can pass US regs. How about the European countries that are not receiving deliveries? Even giving the benefit of doubt on the whimsy regulation theory, wouldn't it be a poor decision to take deposits before homologation is completed?

What I'm starting to detect is a member or two here may have sent some money to Stuart Garner and are hoping against hope they get their bike or their money back. This being the case, I suggest you start the process to get your deposit back. First come, first served. Vehicle deposits are refundable for nondelivery per agreement. I once had a deposit on a new Ford van with the dealer promising delivery within six weeks. Believe you me, the way this van was ordered the dealer did not want to get stuck with it. After twelve weeks and no van, I called the dealer and cancelled my order. I promptly received my deposit refund, in full.

I'm hoping for someone to take over Norton. Someone with the business acumen to realize the scope of manufacturing and selling a new motorcycle.
 
JimC said:
Do you really believe that? Each country's testing would be somewhat unique unto itself. To subject your vehicle to the requirements of multiple countries at the same time would put you up against a real mountain.

Come on! The video was pure PR flak. Same bull customers and dealers have been getting for two years.
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You vastly underestimate the bureaucratic red tape that is required for EPA and similar emission testing. Let alone all the other safety, sound, fuel economy, etc. regulation that are out there. And the costs in both time and money to navigate those regulations. We are talking millions.

Now multiple that by each country you want to send a bike to.

You thought sitting at the DMV was bad... you have no idea...
 
Dave,

My point is to take deposits well in advance of certification seems a bit optimistic, at best. In fact, it may be considered fraudulent. I am of the opinion that waiting for delivery for two years after a sizable deposit was accepted is well beyond acceptable. EPA be damned. Have you read the testaments from disgruntled buyers?
 
L.A.B. said:
camshaft said:
In England the rotary is regarded as being one of Norton's greatest motors, and unlike the twin still has serious development potential.
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Certainly one of Norton's greatest failures! As for 'development potential'-how many decades of development should it actually take?

The rotary engine never has been, and probably never will be, a viable proposition as a motorcycle power plant, and I think everyone else including the Japanese realised that over 30 years ago.
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Having followed a Rotary for a few miles I can confirm them to be the most noxious engine ever - they'd never even come close to passing emissions testing.
Quick though, and incredibly smooth. Shame about the eye-watering stink :cry:

Bring back Hesketh :mrgreen:
(retires to safe distance... 8) )
 
JimC said:
Dave,

My point is to take deposits well in advance of certification seems a bit optimistic, at best. In fact, it may be considered fraudulent. I am of the opinion that waiting for delivery for two years after a sizable deposit was accepted is well beyond acceptable. EPA be damned. Have you read the testaments from disgruntled buyers?
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The whining of people who can afford to put a deposit on a $20k bike do not amuse me. They knew it was a risk putting money down on something that didn't exist. Tough shit.

And if they think it's all just a con job, well, no one would run a con like this. It's just challenging management. Really, is this the first time a British motorcycle company has had issues?

You think Norton is having a tough go, you should see what Tesla went through. Same problems. But since it's not a British company people cut them some slack.
 
john robert bould said:
Andy,
You won't be scoffing when Norton bring out the RSV V4 180bhp version, :lol:
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Hmmmmmmmm....

Maybe they could sell a few hundred of those, and use part of the profits to pay back a few depositors on Commandos...
 
I'd say it would be more like take deposits for RSV V4s and pay some of the Commando deposits off. If they can't deliver 961s how are they to deliver RSV V4s?
 
The fact remains that the rotary was incredibly successful on track. The form, as they say, is in the book. It also remains true to say that it lapped the Island quicker twenty years ago than the hastily assembled V4 did this year. It is not clear whether Norton are developing the rotary beyond boasting in 2010 that they would go to the IoM in 2011 with a 210 bhp version. Like so much else that has come out of the new Norton factory, those words turned out to be complete fantasy. However, the fact is that the rotary does have scope for development and is the only 'true' Norton power plant that would be competitive today, given the application of that development.

Re Rohan's point on Norton and the IoM. Back in the day, Norton went to the Island to race. Recently, they seem to have been back with the idea of publicity in mind - you simply can not compare messing about with the V4 to their historical record. Plenty of people are racing that V4 successfully, but you can not hope to do so starting from scratch six weeks beforehand. Why would anyone wanting an RSV4 buy Norton's version when the stock bike is tried, tested, and incredibly rapid? More to the point, given the current problems, why would anyone order one?

The financial status of potential Norton customers is irrelevant. Are we saying that because they are relatively affluent, they forego consumer rights? Re Terreblanche. Loosing him so quickly didn't help Norton's credibility. You can't argue with the 999's track record or the Multistrada concept. He was responsible for both.

No one wants to see the Norton name associated with more commercial failiure, but ignoring the elephant in the room doesn't help anyone. All that customers want is some transparency, which is the one thing they aren't getting. Apart from their bikes.....
 
Racing is racing - does it matter what they race ?
Could be they are getting some hands-on for a return of the racing rotary, without associating it with failure to begin with. ??

My only question is what capacity is the rotary these days, will it be able to compete with the 1000cc big bangers ? 210 bhp sounds like plenty..

Those guys at the TT are nutz, it has to be said, the speeds between the houses looks phenomenal. The MotoGP and Superbike guys jaws drop when they see the course.
Special breed, definitely a special breed....
 
"No one wants to see the Norton name associated with more commercial failiure, but ignoring the elephant in the room doesn't help anyone. All that customers want is some transparency, which is the one thing they aren't getting. Apart from their bikes....."
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But that's not true, some people are not getting their bikes as fast as they would like (or pehaps have been promised) but a significant number of people are getting their bikes and putting plenty of happy miles on them. Don't get me wrong I would be frustrated waiting but you seem to be trying to portray the new Norton concern as some kind of scam, I suggest you go to the factory and see for yourself, as a journalist I would expect objectivity and going to the source of a particular story, not picking up gossip.
 
If I had placed a deposit two years ago and still did not have my bike, I damn sure would consider it a scam. According to reports, nondeliveries have been as long as two years and still running. More than one such case exists. No one is doubting a factory exists, but it's pretty plain they are not producing many bikes. I've have it on good account that a European dealer is out over 100,000 Euros for Nortons he ordered that have not been delivered. I would say quite a few are not getting their bikes as promised. It would be interesting to see how many bikes Norton has actually shipped versus how many they have taken deposits on and how old these deposits are.
 
JimC said:
If I had placed a deposit two years ago and still did not have my bike, I damn sure would consider it a scam. According to reports, nondeliveries have been as long as two years. More than one such case exists. No one is doubting a factory exists, but it's pretty plain they are not producing many bikes. I've have it on good account that a European dealer is out over 100,000 Euros for Nortons he ordered that have not been delivered. I would say quite a few are not getting their bikes as promised. It would be interesting to see how many bikes Norton has actually shipped versus how many they have taken deposits on and how old these deposits are.
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It would be but you'll never get that info.
 
Rohan said:
My only question is what capacity is the rotary these days, will it be able to compete with the 1000cc big bangers ? 210 bhp sounds like plenty.
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Well, at least they did manage to bring the rotary over to Bonneville in 2009, and it ran well over 170 mph with Garner riding. He told me they had run it to 200 mph on pavement before they brought it over, just to be sure they were ready. As I recall, it was the same bike they were unsuccessful with at the IOM, but they had it well sorted at Bonneville.

Trouble at Mill


He said they were considering going AMA racing with it, since AMA still had rules on the book to cover rotaries. Unfortunately, that never happened.

Ken
 
I agree numbers shipped versus number of deposits would clearly put things into perspective. Last time I looked there were two on ebay though at a bit of a premium price, personally there is a lot I could do with £14k and I am not sure it would be a motorcycle of any kind but if I did the Norton would be on my list.
 
I suggest you go to the factory and see for yourself, as a journalist I would expect objectivity and going to the source of a particular story, not picking up gossip.
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Jim, I've been trying to get a statement from the factory for weeks.

I'm afraid new evidence suggests that it's not just a few individual customers not getting their bikes, more than one European dealer deposited a serious amount of money for stock which they have not received. Their deposits have not been returned.
 
I think I heard about the dealer and the amount. Over 100,000 Euros, right? I'm afraid a lot of people are getting burned. The plug ought to have been pulled on this venture long ago. Unfortunately, the deposit money must have kept on coming in. I hope we don't find that Garner has been scamming. I hope Garner was well intentioned and things just got out of hand. Regardless, when the curtain comes down, Garner and others will probably face criminal charges. They will have not only stiffed some customers, they will have stiffed the British government.

My personal belief is the scope of the venture was vastly underestimated. The market for the bike is there. The bike is very appealing. Unfortunately, these guys were thinking in tens of millions, where they ought to have been thinking in hundreds of millions USD to get this project up and running. Read the story about Indian's demise, the latest one. They were actually delivering bikes, had an established dealer network and they still failed. The reason being, they had grossly underestimated the amount of money they would burn through before the venture became profitable.
 
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