Trouble at Mill

Update. I have spoken to various people re the current situation but in order for max cred I'd like to speak to a few more - ie anyone who has been in direct contact with the current incarnation of Norton, irrespective of outcome. I have already approached Norton themselves. I am also hoping to talk to various suppliers.

I also know for a fact that evidence relating to Norton's treatment of customers was put before MCN some time ago. They chose to ignore it, preferring to concentrate on promoting the company's somewhat questionable activities on the IoM. The bike press in the UK simply doesn't do investigative journalism when the subject is too close to home, ie the industry.
 
Has anyone actually seen a new Norton? I mean one that has been sold to a customer.

I'm quite skeptical, although still enthused. The new Norton company has the appearance of Team USF!, the now defunct formula one car to be built in Charlotte, N.C.
 
JimC said:
Has anyone actually seen a new Norton? I mean one that has been sold to a customer.
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I've yet to see one myself (but then, I don't go to Norton club gatherings) however, the OP of this thread, Richard Barks took delivery of his 961SE in May 2010 (which I believe he has subsequently sold), so let's keep some perspective on this-because, as far as I'm aware, it's only US red tape that's holding up the deliveries to the US and Canada.
 
L.A.B. said:
JimC said:
Has anyone actually seen a new Norton? I mean one that has been sold to a customer.
Click to expand...

I've yet to see one myself (but then, I don't go to Norton club gatherings) however, the OP of this thread, Richard Barks took delivery of his 961SE in May 2010 (which I believe he has subsequently sold), so let's keep some perspective on this-because, as far as I'm aware, it's only US red tape that's holding up the deliveries to the US and Canada.
Click to expand...


I don't go to Norton Club meetings either, but I have seen at least 4 on the road in the last 6 months
 
Quote corrected - L.A.B.
L.A.B. said:
let's keep some perspective on this-because, as far as I'm aware, it's only US red tape that's holding up the deliveries to the US and Canada.
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The problem is Jim that UK and European customers are not neing held up by red tape, and the issue just wont go away, which is why it's time to get some transparency into the picture.

There are a few Nortons on the road over here. No one is saying that the bike doesn't exist, although quite a few people reckon that insufficient capitalisation means they simply don't have enough motors to service orders.

I seriously suggest anyone wanting a new Norton contacts Norvil....

( Ludwig, I'll email you, ta for PM.)
 
The Norvil Nortons are new versions of the original bikes, virtually no difference in design.
The 961 is a total redesign with nothing in common with our old bikes, except the name. In fact, the Kenny Dreer version of this bike was a complete resdesign of the old Norton, then Stuart Garner took over and resdesigned the Dreer motor to make it better and stronger.

One of our Vincent club members, Will, has ridden the 961 and found it to be a terrific machine. His brother owns the bike and was kind enough to lend it to Will for a week. Will said he put a lot of miles in all different conditions during that week and just couldnt find a weak spot in the bike.
He told me that if he had the cash, he would gladly plunk it down for one of these.

Hope they make it thru their difficulties!

Glen
 
Just to keep the record straight, it was not me who posted, "let's keep some perspective on this because, as far as I'm aware, it's only US red tape that's holding up the deliveries to the US and Canada." I have a foreboding feeling that Norton is severely undercapitalized and are not able to meet their commitments. I formed this opinion after googling various websites. To say that it is red tape holding up deliveries to the U.S. and Canada seems a bit skeptical, to say the least. I saw nothing in my searches that would substantiate that dictum. Google the phrase, "Norton motorcycle fails to deliver" and see if you still think that red tape is the problem. Granted, some of the information is not current, but I've not found anything that would indicate different.

This was posted, March 20, 2012, on a Consumer Action Group website, which I believe is a British concern:

Re: Norton motorcycles warning

2 years - no bike !
my story is the same , ordered in feb 2010 , asked to pay cos its ready after a few months , then goes quiet , then lies after lies .
Lies from Andy , Hayden , Craig , Kay , and Chris - not to mention Stuart Garner , who even send me his written promise (lied) .
So i'm sueing them for my money back (after all they've had it in full fot 18 months ! ), using Beswicks also .
I waited and waited , but at the 2 year mark i had to draw the line .
What a pity ,i'm a big Norton Fan - just not this factory - the old one (bracebridge).

The posts are NOT about nondeliveries to the U.S. or Canada.
Certainly, U.S. red tape would not affect deliveries to Canada.
 
Is Stuart Garner related to Peter Windsor?

The homologation process takes m-o-n-e-y.
 
I must be getting old, But after Lab's Norton link.
It states that " Norton won the 2012 Motal team Techinical award for Excellence.." After failing to complete a practice lap,and failed to qualify" How doe's that stack up :!: Was the award for the best none-starter!
 
When you are a brand enthusiast you tend to rationalize away warning signs and faults. I'm certain DeLorean enthusiasts were pretty much the same. At least Indian had an established dealership network with new Indians on the showroom floor for sale and they failed. I'm not aware of any Excelsior dealerships.

Many people grossly underestimate the money necessary to successfully manufacture and market a product. An undertaking such as Norton could easily burn through a few hundred million before becoming profitable. It takes years to start turning a profit. In the meantime employees need to be paid, vendors need to be paid, advertisers need to be paid, shippers need to be paid, interest on loans need to be paid, insurance needs to be paid, utilities need to be paid, just to name a few off the top of my head. Garner is trying to keep afloat by soliciting deposits to meet these expenses. I doubt he will succeed. So far, if the reports on the internet are to be believed, he's failing, dismally. When customers are suing to get their deposits back that's a dismal failure. Period.

Before anyone jumps on me for being a Norton detractor, let me unequivocally state that is not the case. Hell, I'm as much a fool for Nortons as anyone else, after all, I do own one. I'm just not in denial about the failings of Stuart Garner and Co. to deliver as promised. Properly financed, a new Norton venture could succeed. There's a market for the bike. That's already been proven by Garner. What he needs now is a huge infusion of cash to bring this project to a successful fruition. He needs a Warren Buffet!
 
Jim.
I know where you are comming from regarding costs, I have a small take a way [fast food outlet] .The monie's going out is huge! Wages ,gas,electric,supplies ,water rates etc,,Nortons out goings must be massive! But how do companies stand it? Make's me think how a travel agent a few weeks ago anounced a £180 million loss ..in line with forecast! Purhaps £180 million is not much these days :?:
 
I'm not saying it's intentional, but what is happening at Norton, taking deposits and not delivering, is criminal. Stuart Garner had better come up with some bikes or start returning deposits, soon. I just heard from a very reliable source that the situation is more critical than I imagined.
 
john robert bould said:
I must be getting old, But after Lab's Norton link.
It states that " Norton won the 2012 Motal team Techinical award for Excellence.." After failing to complete a practice lap,and failed to qualify" How doe's that stack up :!: Was the award for the best none-starter!
Click to expand...

We are not sure which planet you are on, but in case you hadn't noticed the 'Norton' V4 Racer completed a number of 2012 TT practice laps (albeit not very fast ones, but much faster than a JPN ever did), QUALIFIED for the 2012 race and was ready to race - when it was rained out, again !

If you are going to badmouth em, al least have your facts half straight.... ?

It is nice to see they can put together a creditable racer at least, given sufficient outside sponsorship money. Now, if only they could raise the lira to build all the bikes....
 
Is it my imagination, or does the 'Norton' V4 race bike bear a passing resemblance to some aspects of the fabled Nemesis V8 design.

(Which had (disguised) Kawasaki top ends on the V8 engine bits as shown to the press, it has been mentioned. Which was a bit of a cheat, for a supposed brand new design...?)

IoM TT 2012 Norton
http://www.nortonmotorcycles.com/admin/ ... gelue5.jpg
 
L.A.B. said:
I doubt there are many members here who would agree with that statement!
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Point I was trying to make is that over here Norvil haven't got the consumer issues Norton have, I wasn't comparing the Norvil Norton with the Garner Norton.

Rohan, re the IoM. In the UK there is a perception that Norton are simply messing around on the Island (not for the first time) while customers and suppliers are kept waiting. The fact is that the Rotary lapped faster than the V4 did this year, and that was twenty odd years ago. There are plenty of successful machines racing the RSV4 in a variety of different chassis, from Biaggi in WSBK to the varied CRT bikes in GP. Judging by the way they prepared for the TT, Norton don't appear to be taking the project that seriously themselves.

In England the rotary is regarded as being one of Norton's greatest motors, and unlike the twin still has serious development potential. I think it's fair to say that many people are perplexed by how the current set up seem to have overlooked it, since it would certainly sell if available as a road bike. It would be in a class of one instead of being just another retro contender. Indeed, in the very early days of the new Norton Garner was quoted as saying that a revised rotary was central to their plans.

The bottom line is that no one can figure out what is going on right now, but the signs look ominous. One persistent rumour is that Terreblanche walked because he realised trouble was dead ahead - he lasted three months. It could be down to insufficient capitalisation as has been suggested, but increasingly there is an uncomfortable feeling that what we have here is a wealthy man's vanity project - let's hope that is not the case.
 
camshaft said:
In England the rotary is regarded as being one of Norton's greatest motors, and unlike the twin still has serious development potential.
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Certainly one of Norton's greatest failures! As for 'development potential'-how many decades of development should it actually take?

The rotary engine never has been, and probably never will be, a viable proposition as a motorcycle power plant, and I think everyone else including the Japanese realised that over 30 years ago.
 
[Quote corrected - L.A.B.]
camshaft said:
One persistent rumour is that Terreblanche walked because he realised trouble was dead ahead - he lasted three months.
Click to expand...

Or could it be that Norton didn't want to make an ugly bike and told him to take a hike. :mrgreen:
 
camshaft said:
Rohan, re the IoM. In the UK there is a perception that Norton are simply messing around on the Island (not for the first time) while customers and suppliers are kept waiting.
Click to expand...

Funny, if you read the Norton histories you (rapidly?) realise that Norton have been 'messing about on the Island' for the best part of their whole history. With an unbroken record of attending EVERY IoM TT from 1907 to 1975 (was it ?), that makes them the ONLY Factory to have competed in every TT ever held - by a long chalk, a long chalk indeed.

Indeed, it was said that the Factory lived, breathed and raced only for the IoM TT's and the road bikes were a vehicle to achieve that. (Other factories had this ethos too, it should be said, Velo and AJS and Excelsior and a number of smaller concerns, sometimes only for a few short years though - as funds and abilities and enthusiasm allowed.)

I for one applaud Mt Garner for getting Nortons act into gear, and getting back to the Island, back where Nortons belong. But then I'm not waiting for delivery of a new Norton either.
They were at pains though to point out that this race effort was entirely funded from outside, so its not like the monies were diverted from the customer side of things (hopefully !). Time will tell...

Apparently the rotaries are alive and well, and separated from motorcycles entirely, and flying in drone aircraft. Different market, rather.
And having a nominal 588cc in a 500cc world gave them a bit of a kick along in the racing scene ? !!! ? Would that still be permitted today ? Bit like in the first TT of 1907, the singles were one capacity, and the twins were allowed about 15% more ?!?
 
Camshaft, didn't the Garner Norton website have some coverage of their racing development/department showing the rotary as one of the bikes to be punted arount the IoM?
Regards Mike
 
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