Really not another oil thread

[lomaxcm]

I see no mention of Aircraft in the STP history at http://www.stp.com/stp-and-racing/stp-history/ . Not saying it was not used for that but wondering why there was a need in 1954 ?

What what I am reading it was developed for this. "STP® Oil Treatment, that helped automobile motor oil resist thinning at high temperatures and pressures."

Marc

 

[Hobot]

Uh, might want to search up < excess ZADP > or similar concepts, as there is a point too much ZADP interferes with itself and increases wear rate. Also interesting to look up how thin the < zinc-phosphorous nano-pods > layer is and the conditions and rate at which its wiped off, hopefully just after decent oil pressure rpm wedge surfing arises. Picture standing on a dry sumped lifter and turning a rubbing cam lobe under to lift ya, picture turning dozens of times dry sumped before pressure sprays out rods and dribbles down somewhat on lobes vs twice the rpm crank spin wet sump splash/sling on the half speed cam lobes ... Really if ya want the best oil protection follow Harley and put in 60 grade.

 

[worntorn]

For years I used our local Federated Coop brand oil in straight 50 weight. Sounds hokey to get oil from a Coop, however they are very big on oil in the ag world and supply many Farmers, so they have their own refinery back in the CDN prairies. Farmers run machines that cost hundreds of thousands each, so they are picky about oil and Coop has a great rep.
They did away with the straight 50 and replaced it with a 20/50 synthetic. I have found consumption went up a bit with this oil vs the old straight 50. This summer when riding in 95- 100 temps it was noticeable. I tried some Valvoline VR1 racing oil in a non synthetic straight 50 weight. Consumption dropped back to negligible, so I will continue to use it. Has additives for our old engines.

Glen

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/access ... 61746_0_0_

 

[marksterrtt]

Hmmm, will have to ponder a bit about the straight wt. and consumption, although consumption doesn't bother me when within reason, what does bother me is the fact that something like 80% of an engines wear is from cold start up...once warm and running not so much, so I think I will trade a little consumption for that multigrade being there sooner then later. I've started many large aircraft engines with straight 50 wt. oil in the winter time in Chicago (before multigrade) and watched that first minute go by with no oil pressure indication, then another and another. If I remember correctly, after one minute without press. indication we were supposed to stop, not all owners wanted to take the time or trouble or expense for preheat or engine heaters. More than a few large radial engines have an oil dilution system that thins the oil with fuel for cold starts.

STP in WWII aircraft? Not that I ever heard. My brother restored WWII fighters down at Chino airport and they would put preoilers on them. A Merlins cam and rockers didn't last to long back in the old days but then the planes had a short life expectancy but probably not from cam wear.

 

[Nortiboy]

So bored. Snow so thick. Did you know German Scientists had to scramble to create synthetic after the Allies dropped bombs all over the oil refinerys ?

Thanks, didnt know that!!

The legend I heard was that "STP" like oil additive was developed to hasten the ability to start up recip aircraft engines and get the them airborn FASTER (without as much warm-up time) to reduce the aircraft destroyed on the ground in surprise raids. Can anyone substantiate? Or Myth? :?:

Worked on one Merlin and several Pratt and Whitney 18 cylinder radials. (DC4) to name a few.

Radial engine oil was SAE 140. Avgas (130-145 octane) was injected into the crankcase to get it to turn over easier when cold. This was the cold start technology of the day.

Additives in Aero engines was a no no in my experience.

 

[worntorn]

Hmmm, will have to ponder a bit about the straight wt. and consumption, although consumption doesn't bother me when within reason, what does bother me is the fact that something like 80% of an engines wear is from cold start up...once warm and running not so much, so I think I will trade a little consumption for that multigrade being there sooner then later. I've started many large aircraft engines with straight 50 wt. oil in the winter time in Chicago (before multigrade) and watched that first minute go by with no oil pressure indication, then another and another. If I remember correctly, after one minute without press. indication we were supposed to stop, not all owners wanted to take the time or trouble or expense for preheat or engine heaters. More than a few large radial engines have an oil dilution system that thins the oil with fuel for cold starts.

STP in WWII aircraft? Not that I ever heard. My brother restored WWII fighters down at Chino airport and they would put preoilers on them. A Merlins cam and rockers didn't last to long back in the old days but then the planes had a short life expectancy but probably not from cam wear.

I suppose it depends on where you live and what temps you ride in. I dont ride the bikes here in winter, once the temps drop to where oil thickness/cold start might be a concern, there is salt on the roads and it eats the al. Rims, among other things.
I do tend to ride in some very hot temps in the spring/summer/fall and for now was quite pleased with the way the 50wt VR1 stayed in the bike when really flogging it. The 20/50 was finding its way out the breather and onto the rear tire in the same hot conditions.
I suspect the straight 50 would show a little higher oil pressure when run hot than the 20/50 had, so there is the flip side of the oil pressure question. And it is made for flat tappet engines, not much oil is today.

Glen

 

[marksterrtt]

Worton, when I worked at an m/c dealership in the late '60's early '70's one of our perks was access to a 55 gal drum of Castrol 20-50 so I used that in the street bike and changed it almost weekly but for the desert sled I ran 50 wt. Kendall, was considered one of the best at the time...Mark

Old radial aircraft engines, now we're talking oil consumption but what great old engines and if you have ever heard Rare Bear roar by at the Reno air races 'OMG' it is unbelievable and you actually feel it in your chest...

 

[Bernhard]

So bored. Snow so thick. Did you know German Scientists had to scramble to create synthetic after the Allies dropped bombs all over the oil refinerys ?

Thanks, didnt know that!!

The legend I heard was that "STP" like oil additive was developed to hasten the ability to start up recip aircraft engines and get the them airborn FASTER (without as much warm-up time) to reduce the aircraft destroyed on the ground in surprise raids. Can anyone substantiate? Or Myth? :?:

Re; STP oil in WWII aircraft :?:
Probably a little too early in this oils history :?:

http://www.stp.com/stp-and-racing/stp-racing-history/

 

[concours]

The legend I heard was that "STP" like oil additive was developed to hasten the ability to start up recip aircraft engines and get the them airborn FASTER (without as much warm-up time) to reduce the aircraft destroyed on the ground in surprise raids. Can anyone substantiate? Or Myth? :?:

Re; STP oil in WWII aircraft :?:
Probably a little too early in this oils history :?:

http://www.stp.com/stp-and-racing/stp-racing-history/[/quote]


Maybe if I had capitalized the word " L I K E " ?? :lol:

 

[Hobot]

If ya car, dare to ya to make sense of these demo's

oils-well-that-ends-well-t18178.html

 

[marksterrtt]

As the great philosopher Roberto Duran once uttered, "No mas! No mas!"

Hobot, if all there was to oil testing was that wear test, we'd know pretty quick which oils were at the top of the heap, that said, the visual wear test is compeling eh? I like the internal inspection of the oil filters, I have one brand not shown that I may sacrafice for science, if I don't cheap out.

Aircraft oil is labeled like booze, 80=40 wt., 100=50 wt. and 140=70 wt., just so know one thinks aircraft 140 is 140 wt., the old air cooled radials needed all the protection they could get and dripped and consumed a lot of it, range was determined almost as much by oil consumption as fuel consumption.

 

[JimC]

The legend I heard was that "STP" like oil additive was developed to hasten the ability to start up recip aircraft engines and get the them airborn FASTER (without as much warm-up time) to reduce the aircraft destroyed on the ground in surprise raids. Can anyone substantiate? Or Myth? :?:[/quote]


Re; STP oil in WWII aircraft :?:
Probably a little too early in this oils history :?:

http://www.stp.com/stp-and-racing/stp-racing-history/[/quote]

STP was first marketed in 1954, according to the link. It does not say when the product itself was first developed. STP may well have existed prior to 1954. It may have been known by another name and used by the military only prior to it being unleashed upon the public.

 

[Hobot]

“Scientifically Treated Petroleum” 'engine honey' Is good for swing arm spindle rust protection with more sticky drool to clean. Can add to engine oil to up oil pressure into nerve calming level. Drives squirrels nuts on pole feeders. A dab on drill bits slowly drools into the cutting flushing area. Keeps my mower deck dolly wheels spinning mostly free with the grease zerks plugged up.

 

[Matt Spencer]

" developed to hasten the ability to start up recip aircraft engines and get the them airborn FASTER "

That was my P-38 !

Push throttle to floor , hold 2nd time . Hit key , hit 4000 . Key Off . Key ON , Hit 5000 , key off . Engauge 1st . Key ON , Release Clutch . :x

Blows the cobwebs out . :? Read Russian forward airfields had two minutes warning of raids , so needed to be ' over the boundary ' in one minute .
Proceedure was to hit everything ON , in sub zero temperatures . Run Full Throttle for 30 secs while completeing checks , pull throttle back , clear & GO .

Apparently some of their ' lend lease ' aircraft wernt to happy with this proceedure . :?

Leyland P-38 .

flogged by mental defective .

Was going to do this with the spare .

This IS called ' P-38 ' theyre ordinarilly refered to as P-76 . :x Rover P-7 .

' WE ' had ' Moreys ' in Valvolene oil , funnily the Falcon rattles the lifters with moreys on start up ( yea , ive tried it on that too ). Straight valvolene , No Noise . :?
The old CF Bedford 2.300 would switch of the light in 3 secs doing this , 30 seconds if idled on sttart up , as the pumps five miles from the valve gear ( pressureised ) .
The passageway through the head face got salubrious :? :lol: with this proceedure , so ' O ' rings on oilways at mateing faces may be adviseable .

Two to Four seconds on the 4.4 alloy V-8 P38 would be fully pressureised and Pistons at Temp. for clean idle , if you went inclined to spray gravel about . These cars are also good for forwarding rivers . :mrgreen:
as they float , you need to have some momentum on hand though . 8)

While we're there with the Moreys , it's said to cling to all the surfaces - so you dont get a ' dry ' start up - definately protection against whoopsies if you hole a sump or radiator . But dont ask the impossable .
Overheating any older ( used ) engine will free all the debri - so if you have cooked it - the oils had the guts torn out of it and needs immedite replacement . Towing two ton ( vaugely ) across the countryside , if at moderate speeds , will prove transmission ( Manual G'Box & Diff ) oil need more frequent serviceing under severe use . Before the hot seasons a good time to replace them . Before the cold season for tyres .

 

[Madnorton]

No brainer this one! just use the cheapest oil of the correct spec you can find. I use Tesco own brand full synthetic, for a while was a better spec than Mobil 1 which was sold alongside it! The cheapest modern oil is most probably better than the good oils in the 60's / 70's. Monograde oils that are pushed by retailers here 'just what a commando should use' hype is a just a profiteering exercise in my opinion as it is dearer than many other better oils.
Monograde - ideal for ships and generators with oil tank heating and engines running a near constant speed with super filters and centrifuges to clean it, sadly my commando has none of them.

 

[beltdriveman]

Oh what the hell here goes...some VERY simple clutch calculations for the original 750 Commando clutch....for thos interested in the subject that is......
1. Clutch torque capacity requirement. Max crank torque is given as 48 ft lb. Primary ratio 26tooth - 57tooth thus assuming no power loss in chain max torque at clutch = 48 x57/26 = 105 ft lb. A rule of thumb clutch service / safety factor allowing for shock loads from the rear wheel, the impulsive nature of the engines power output and vibration resulting from chain usage is x 2 thus the required clutch torque capacity for the clutch = 105 x 2 = 210 ft lb.
2. The in theory torque capacity of the original 750 clutch. It employs 4 friction plates giving 8 friction interfaces of which the effective radius was approx 0.205 ft. With the ORIGINAL version of the diaphragm spring employed for the original production models when set up at the CORRECT spring deflection point it applied a clamp load of approx 380 lb to the friction interfaces (according to Nortons original test results and the testing olf two original diaphragm springs conducted for me by the Mech Eng Dept of a certain Engineering Universitry). The Norton drawings for the original friction plates show they employed small 'lumps of Ferodo MS6 friction material bonded to the steel backing plate and the Ferodo data sheet for MS6 gives the following Coefficient of Friction(C of F) values to be used for design purposes. DRY 0.34. OIL MIST 0.12 - 0.1. IN OIL 0.09. (Thus following the rule of thumb 3-4 to 1 rule....for sintered bronze rule of thumb C of F values are DRY 0.3 and WET 0.06 - 0.08). Thus the in theory torque capacity of the original Commando clutch is..........
DRY................8 x 0.205ft x 380lb x 0.34 = 212 ft lb.
OIL MIST..........8 x 0.205ft x 380lb x 0.12 = 75 ft lb.
IN OIL..............8 x 0.205ft x 380lb x 0.09 = 56 ft lb.
I would thus suggest that Commando clutches are as Mr Jim Renolds CORRECTLY refers to them (and Dominator ones) in his book 'Norton a Racing Legend'....'DRY clutches enclosed within an oil bath CHAIN cases'. In the book 'Speed and How to Obtain it' by the staff of 'The Motor Cycle' they describe the idea of shoving the clutch within the oil bath chain case as 'FRANKLY A COMPROMISE' along with stating a much better idea is to enclose the chain withing the chain case but employ the clutch dry externally...as Ariel did it but of course it was more expensive ......!!
If you want to learn some more FACTS about this and other Commando subjects ........
see the web .....nortoncommandoclutch.zxq.net/index/htm .

 

[Johnnymac]

I have been using Morris Golden Film SAE 50. I have no idea if it's any better than others. My local shop recommended it to me and they carry it.

http://www.morrislubricantsonline.co.uk ... r-oil.html