NOT Another Oil Thread

[Dan1950]

Jim did absolutely great work. I wonder even if the effort of it is part of why he doesn't contribute today.

Some of us thought it was the oil thread to end all oil threads, but it seems not!

For some it never seemed enough, regardless of the thoughtfulness, technique and huge effort involved, the results didn't meet their pre-existing prejudices.....

The only fly in the ointment has been the availability of different oils in different locations around the world, including variations in well known brands in different markets. There is also the fact that the 'recipes' themselves vary season on season and ingredients important to 40 year old flat tappets are removed.

Discussing the qualities of each oil should have been done to death, but pricing and availability is key to applying Jim's findings.

So he included a lot of work on oils people sent to him from their local supply, and that was informative too.

Boutique products like Klotz or Royal Purple at 11$ a litre or Quart would be great for all of us, but that is impossible here in France.

So I use another oil from the top end of the list, but I would love to use one with a better rating on heat generation!

It was the heat rating that made the Royal Purple HPS 20W50 attractive to me.

Given the fact that our flat tappets are non-rotating unlike older automotive flat tappets that do rotate, the zinc additives should go a long way to promote cam lobe life.

That coupled with widespread availability helped me make the choice.

 

[luckyed]

the end

 

[robs ss]

I checked out the oil charts on tech info.

I'm looking for the best protection with the emphasis on an oil that is readily available.

This is for a stock 850 MK II.

Initially I was considering Castrol GTX 20W50 conventional which ranked near the top for "stage 2 Commandos" It has a good (for a stock Commando) load capacity at 257 but the heat from friction was a bit high at 7.7.

The Local NAPA stocks Royal Purple HPS 20W50 which has a load capacity of 457 with a low heat from friction value of 0.44. Seems like a good choice to me.

I know there will be other products that will give just as adequate or even better protection, but I want something that can be purchased at various localities. In addition to my area in Northern NY state, I have searched NAPA stores in the Butler, PA area as well as Southern Indiana and all have have same day pick up options for Royal Purple HPS 20W50.


Does anyone have experience with this product?

NOT another person who didn't read @comnoz thread (THE definitive work!)
Aug 21, 2018

 

[gortnipper]

I checked out the oil charts on tech info.

I'm looking for the best protection with the emphasis on an oil that is readily available.

This is for a stock 850 MK II.

Initially I was considering Castrol GTX 20W50 conventional which ranked near the top for "stage 2 Commandos" It has a good (for a stock Commando) load capacity at 257 but the heat from friction was a bit high at 7.7.

The Local NAPA stocks Royal Purple HPS 20W50 which has a load capacity of 457 with a low heat from friction value of 0.44. Seems like a good choice to me.

I know there will be other products that will give just as adequate or even better protection, but I want something that can be purchased at various localities. In addition to my area in Northern NY state, I have searched NAPA stores in the Butler, PA area as well as Southern Indiana and all have have same day pick up options for Royal Purple HPS 20W50.


Does anyone have experience with this product?

I have been using this in my bike exclusively since I rebuilt it about 6 years ago, bar the first 100 mi break in. I change it regularly and it always looks better than when I was running GTX or Mobile-1 V-twin.

I used Mobile 1 v-twin oil for years before I recently switched to Royal Purple.
Mobil 1 v-twin works very well.
Comparing those two was what started all this. Jim

Bel Ray v-twin is a very good performer for a Norton. As is the Mobil 1 v-twin.

Actually any of the oils I tested that were made for a Harley would be suitable in a Norton motor -some just last longer than others when the temps get high.

But overall the winner ended up being the Royal Purple HPS 20-50.

It held the highest load at the highest temperature for the longest time.

For maximum load the Bel Ray is the highest -but when you add the high friction it does not do as well.

Heat from friction is something that is important because high friction creates more heat and more heat drops the load capacity.

These tests were done with controlled temperature, controlled temperature is not something that is possible with an air cooled motor, so this is an important consideration.

And yes, Mobil 1 is well down on the list of load capacity, but the load capacity has proven to be high enough for most stock operation and it is very resistant to oxidation from heat.

So the way the list of oil is sorted, the highest load capacity is at the top of the list. But the list was not made with the idea that the best oil is at the top. Sometimes the best choice is going to be determined by climate, how the bike is used and even price and availability.

I can make a list of the top choices for my use and location -but then it's not likely to be right for someone else.

Royal Purple does the best job of meeting my requirements.
1. The load capacity is more than adequate
2. It generates very little heat from friction
3. It oxidizes very slowly which means I can do a 4000 mile trip without a change.

4. In testing I did that is not represented in the chart, I did some testing with a reduced load but I shut down the cooling system and let the temperature continue to rise until failure. The Royal Purple won that test -but that test may only be important to a few guys in the desert SW or a couple people in Australia that tend to run long days at high speed on hot days.
Most people will never see oil temps up there over 350 degrees.

 

[worntorn]

Jim Comstock's tests showed Royal Purple in an excellent light.
That would be my choice for that reason alone.

Soft like butter camshafts and delicate cam followers leaves me wanting the very best oil for temp and load that I can get my hands on.

Royal Purple had one at the top and one at the bottom.
The Royal Purple XPR is in the group of oils that might be problematic in a stock Norton.
It is an expensive oil that has lots of zddp but it did not test well at all.
If memory serves, it was the oil that was in Jim's bike when it ate it's cam.
Just one of the interesting surprises that came out of those tests.

Glen

 

[milfordite]

I still run the Valvoline VR-1 20/50. On Jim's tests it came in well for a stockish bike. Readily available about anywhere. I just bought a 5qt jug for $33.

 

[Fast Eddie]

Royal Purple had one at the top and one at the bottom.
The Royal Purple XPS is in the group of oils that might be problematic in a stock Norton.
It is an expensive oil that has lots of zddp but it did not test well at all.
If memory serves, it was the oil that was in Jim's bike when it ate it's cam.
Just one of the interesting surprises that came out of those tests.

Glen

Quite right. It’s the HPS that a Norton wants.

 

[worntorn]

I still run the Valvoline VR-1 20/50. On Jim's tests it came in well for a stockish bike. Readily available about anywhere. I just bought a 5qt jug for $33.

Ive run vr1 20/50 and straight 50 (in hot temps) in the Vincent for 60,000 miles now. That mileage has been mainly two up + luggage touring with a fair bit of it done in 95-100 f weather.
On inspection at 60,000 miles the bores measured 1 thou of taper/wear. Hastings piston rings recommend a rebore at 12 thou taper.
The valve stems measured 2 ten thousands of wear.
Up to 7 or 8 ten thousandths would be acceptable.
Leak down also good, after a bit of valve seat grinding then lapping to remove carbon deposits.
So the VR1 seems to do the job.
Jim noted that it is an oil that oxidizes fairly quickly in hot temps. If you are on a long tour in a hot region that could be an issue with the Norton. Norton twins run quite a bit hotter than the Vin with its separated alloy cylinders and massive alloy crankcases out in the breeze.

Glen

 

[Dan1950]

Ive run vr1 20/50 and straight 50 (in hot temps) in the Vincent for 60,000 miles now. That mileage has been mainly two up + luggage touring with a fair bit of it done in 95-100 f weather.
On inspection at 60,000 miles the bores measured 1 thou of taper/wear. Hastings piston rings recommend a rebore at 12 thou taper.
The valve stems measured 2 ten thousands of wear.
Up to 7 or 8 ten thousandths would be acceptable.
Leak down also good, after a bit of valve seat grinding then lapping to remove carbon deposits.
So the VR1 seems to do the job.

Glen

What sort of tappets does the Vincent use?

 

[worntorn]

Flat tappets on that bike.

 

[SteveA]

See, when you guys say......Readily available about anywhere....or.....coupled with widespread availability....

Please add....in the US....

Because outside the US....it just isn't....

 

[Tornado]

See, when you guys say......Readily available about anywhere....or.....coupled with widespread availability....

Please add....in the US....

Because outside the US....it just isn't....

Yup, I cannot source VR1 locally at less than $12 a litre. I did once find it at Walmart for $2.60 a litre, and grabbed all the remaining bottles (4) on the shelf. Must have been some pricing mistake as never saw that again.

 

[Brooking 850]

I run RP HPS 20/50 in both my road bike and my race bike. I have to by it online from a supplier here in New Zealand,(good supply) if doing a long trip on the road bike, just carry a bit extra in a container for top up.
Very good oil
Regards Mike

 

[worntorn]

Yup, I cannot source VR1 locally at less than $12 a litre. I did once find it at Walmart for $2.60 a litre, and grabbed all the remaining bottles (4) on the shelf. Must have been some pricing mistake as never saw that again.

I just ordered a case of six at 49.76 CDN, on Amazon. ca, about $8 per qt.
Free delivery tomorrow.

Better than driving to Napa and paying $12!
I still have some left from a US Walmart order of 16 qts @ $3.
Thats probably the end of the really cheap VR1, but $8 per qt is pretty decent.

I put Belray in the bike with big cams.
Another oil that did well in Jim's testing was Castol Classic xl. Available in the UK but not in Canada.
An Oregon based Mc parts retailer also sells it at fair prices, about $50 US for the 5 qt tin.
Almost worth it for the lovely tin!

Glen

 

[Tornado]

I just ordered a case of six at 49.76 CDN, on Amazon. ca, about $8 per qt.
Free delivery tomorrow.

Better than driving to Napa and paying $12!
I still have some left from a US Walmart order of 16 qts @ $3.
Thats probably the end of the really cheap VR1, but $8 per qt is pretty decent.

I put Belray in the bike with big cams.
Another oil that did well in Jim's testing was Castol Classic xl. Available in the UK but not in Canada.
An Oregon based Mc parts retailer also sells it at fair prices, about $50 US for the 5 qt tin.
Almost worth it for the lovely tin!

Glen

THx...pricing is just all over the place for oil. RP HPS is running $25-$35 per litre. Walmart has it at $150 a litre . Even Fortnine, my go to place for BelRay EXP, now has it at $70 per 5 litres, some $20 higher than a few months back.

 

[gortnipper]

I run RP HPS 20/50 in both my road bike and my race bike. I have to by it online from a supplier here in New Zealand,(good supply) if doing a long trip on the road bike, just carry a bit extra in a container for top up.
Very good oil
Regards Mike

They used to have the 5 gal jug. Haven't seen that for a while.

Last time I bought it it was still cheaper than Mobile 1.

 

[Onder]

One of the questions should be how long will the oil be used before change. Price matters more and more so you have to figure it all in . I used to change oi at 1k now it is closer to 2k but the oil come out pretty dark. Does it matter?
Time for another round of testing! ...sorry couldn't resist.

 

[Time Warp]

They used to have the 5 gal jug. Haven't seen that for a while.

Last time I bought it it was still cheaper than Mobile 1.

$384 here. ($19.20 per Litre)

Litre bottles range $21 to $28.

 

[gortnipper]

$384 here. ($19.20 per Litre)

Litre bottles range $21 to $28.

$15.96 qt. here in NZ pesos.

 

[Time Warp]

$15.96 qt. here in NZ pesos.

Wow, around $5 to $12 a litre difference to here.