pazon timing and Madass (Don Pender) Carb Linkage Kit with choke - ???

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I just went through the same issue, Joe. I installed a new Pazon ignition, but timed it using the wrong alternator mark, BDC instead of TDC. Set it to the right mark and it fired up immediately. You do need to reset it with a timing light once it's running. I set mine up very carefully at 29 degrees static at installation, but the timing light showed it at 33. Adjusted it to 29, and it runs perfectly.

Easiest way to make sure you are on the right alternator mark is to pull a plug and make sure that the piston is at the top of it's stroke, not the bottom. That's easier than pulling the primary cover to check it. Those degree marks on the trigger board really help in getting it right.

Ken
 
marshg246 said:
Nope! One mark is TDC, the other is BDC - they do not fire every 180 degrees, they fire every 360 degrees. Remember, each cylinder fires once per 720 degrees so two cylinders in this type of engine one fires once each 360 degrees.
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understand - in fact, feel kind of stupid right now. i''m guessing i misunderstood pazon's instructions along with not being that familiar with the norton engine layout. the "either cylinder and the lost spark" thing I got a bit confused. once I sat down and sorted through things, along with a little help here, it came together. been rushing things lately trying to get this project finished - just not thinking. need to drop back ten and regroup.
 
So, does it run?

Assuming it does, you still should go back and verify the timing scale by using a degree wheel and piston hard stop. I found my '74 to be 4 degrees advanced from what the scale showed, which explained why I was having the pinging issue.
 
I have the madass setup with the chokes removed.
No issues starting. Maybe 3 kicks cold, 1st kick when warm. Tri-Spark EI. Timing was set static with an indicator wheel. Have not touched it since initial setup. I probably could advance it a couple of degrees but it runs very well so why screw with it.

Meaning...the loss of choke had no effect on starting. The tickling button is all I ever use.
 
Nater_Potater said:
So, does it run?

Assuming it does, you still should go back and verify the timing scale by using a degree wheel and piston hard stop. I found my '74 to be 4 degrees advanced from what the scale showed, which explained why I was having the pinging issue.
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not yet, but getting close. reset the timing about 5°retarded form pazon's recommended 31° BTDC - around 26° indicated, but no guarantee the timing scale is on the money. anyway, still no go. getting lots of ignition pops - just wont start. has to be a timing thing - might try a squirt of starting fluid. really need to do this right and get a degree wheel on the thing. been trying to kick this over with a bad knee and recovering from a couple broken toes, and to be honest, at 72, not sure I have enough arse left in me for this. :D
 
Joe, beware the starting fluid, your knee may pay the price.
Start over with a degree wheel. Take it to TDC and set the ignition at 28 degrees before. Make sure the plugs are not fouled.
This way you know you have established a sound base to start from. If you are confident fuel is being "inhaled" into your cylinders, tickle both carbs, crack the throttle and then stomp it. The sound can tell you a lot from there.

According to my wheel my indicator was off less than 1 degree.
 
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joe czech said:
IS THIS EVEN POSSIBLE? has anyone installed the factory choke mechanism (cables and associated hardware) to the amal carbs with the Madass (Don Pender) Carb Linkage Kit?

I've got everything tuned in - fuel, spark, timing, etc, but this puppy doesn't want to start. it's 60-ish here in florida, and I was hoping I could get away without it, but i'm thinking I need to choke them carbs. tickled them puppies and jumped on that kick start till I was blue in the face (sore foot today). got a couple ignition pops, but that was about it.


I really like the madass linkage kit, but if this bike wants and needs choke, then Houston, we have a problem....
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Joe, to answer your original question, yes the chokes do work with the Madass linkage, but to offset some of the the thickness of the mounting plate being sandwiched under the carb tops, I removed the locking nuts from the choke cable adjusters and screwed them all the way down. ( I don't think that's your issue though).

Re: kick starting, I try to avoid the classic kicking action, as it's a strain on the knee joint as I'm sure you know. I stand straight legged on the lever, and once it's well on it's way down exert the final "swing through" force to give the motor some extra inertia. However, admittedly this technique is not much good when you stall at traffic lights, and in panic / embarrassment forget all this and just want to get going. So my solution was to fit an Alton starter. I've not used the lever since.

Cheers,

cliffa.
 
Retarded timing makes pops and farts when you try to kickstart.

Advanced timing makes for kickback when you kick it.

It sounds to me like your timing is too slow -ie retarded.

Static timing is just accurate enough to get it started. [hopefully] Then you need to use a light to get it right.
 
joe czech said:
understand - in fact, feel kind of stupid right now.
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No need, many of us, me included have used the wrong mark. BTW, a few degrees either way is not stopping you. Too advanced will hurt you. Not advanced enough will reduce the power. Way to retarded can cause your symptoms. That's why my guess, if it is timing, is 180 degrees out.

Other possibilities are flooded but you said the plugs are dry. No fuel but you're hopefully tickling both carb until fuel comes out.

Too weak kicking - hard to detect. There are many opinions - hopefully no one will tell you to jump on it - doesn't help and can break things. The most important thing is to think it through - in other words, follow through. Ideally you'll get the engine to a point where there is resistance on the starter then push with all your might all the way down (NO JUMPING). You want the engine to be turning quickly when the cylinder on the compression stroke fires. It's a hard thing to teach. I've shown people half my age how to start a Norton after they kicked many times and it took me only one. Because of my age, reduced strength, and replaced left hip. I stand on the right side of the bike with it on the center stand and use my right leg on the lever. Throttle closed. On those rare occasions where it doesn't start on the first or second kick, I re-tickle and open the throttle slightly. and try again. If I've kicked 4 times and it's not running I figure out why before trying more.
 
marshg246 said:
No need, many of us, me included have used the wrong mark. BTW, a few degrees either way is not stopping you. Too advanced will hurt you. Not advanced enough will reduce the power. Way to retarded can cause your symptoms. That's why my guess, if it is timing, is 180 degrees out.

Other possibilities are flooded but you said the plugs are dry. No fuel but you're hopefully tickling both carb until fuel comes out.

Too weak kicking - hard to detect. There are many opinions - hopefully no one will tell you to jump on it - doesn't help and can break things. The most important thing is to think it through - in other words, follow through. Ideally you'll get the engine to a point where there is resistance on the starter then push with all your might all the way down (NO JUMPING). You want the engine to be turning quickly when the cylinder on the compression stroke fires. It's a hard thing to teach. I've shown people half my age how to start a Norton after they kicked many times and it took me only one. Because of my age, reduced strength, and replaced left hip. I stand on the right side of the bike with it on the center stand and use my right leg on the lever. Throttle closed. On those rare occasions where it doesn't start on the first or second kick, I re-tickle and open the throttle slightly. and try again. If I've kicked 4 times and it's not running I figure out why before trying more.
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thanks - reset the timing to 28° BTDC (and i'm positive it's BTDC). as far as i'm concerned, timing's on the money. fuel on, key on, tickled the carbs, cracked the throttle, and NOTHING. pretty sure i'm getting gas, and I have spark. new NGK's. kind of stumped. beginning to think there's something else going on here. anyway, done for the day - back at it tomorrow.
 
let me throw this out - I know I have spark, but any chance I could have weak spark?
 
Pretty sure you are getting gas...
pull the plugs, squirt a couple of drops into each cylinder, reset plugs, then kick it over and see if you get a reaction...
 
I can tell you that if you installed a Surefire using the static timing instructions then you are going to be very retarded. Likely too retarded to start. Jim
 
joe czech said:
thanks - reset the timing to 28° BTDC (and i'm positive it's BTDC). as far as i'm concerned, timing's on the money. fuel on, key on, tickled the carbs, cracked the throttle, and NOTHING. pretty sure i'm getting gas, and I have spark. new NGK's. kind of stumped. beginning to think there's something else going on here. anyway, done for the day - back at it tomorrow.
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If you just built the engine, you may want to recheck:

Compression
Valve timing

That's about all that's left if your getting fuel and spark at the right time.
 
joe czech said:
let me throw this out - I know I have spark, but any chance I could have weak spark?
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Unlikely.

Silly question - did you time using the clockwise or anti-clockwise hole? Norton Commandos are anti-clockwise.
 
Another suggestion is to get some hi octane gas. Either unleaded racing gas or get some octane booster.
 
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