Pazion Puzzle failure

I tried a voltmeter, the oscilloscope works better.

Even easier I'd reckon a light bulb across the coil would show you what you might want to know ( i.e. is the ignition cycling the coils ).

I have the Pazion trigger coil plate and the rotor out and loose right now. Prior this I'd tried kicking but not spark and no current reaching the coils, blocked somehow by the brain box, so I asssumed might be normal until 100 rpm trigger threshold reached, BUT after I brush the trigger wires together and got plugs to spark I then found current passing through both coil constant. So did I trip the brain by the trigger wire shorting or just a fluke of voltage spike more than the coil flux signal?

Will put Pazion back on and see if kicking makes plugs spark before i put plugs in. If not - nothing for it but try the points again with staggered timing or sell the thing before climate and deer or me ruin it again. One thing Wes and me is sure of, there is full correct voltage and polarity coming out the feed wire into Pazion and returning via head and Pazion coil connection via robust chassis and wire paths to earth.

I'm am sort of an on call Dr. and used to look forward to calls and commutes at all hours, having adventure and thrills on each leg in and out on a Commando. Deer and goats and dogs close encounters and THE Gravel and loo loo out of lane traffic dodging each trip makes me question my desire to do it again.

Didn't the instructions mention that you have to connect the wires at about 1 sec. intervals, too slow will result in no spark? Got my unit today, no time so tomorrow will be the test after starting with AAU, making sure so far everything else is good. I'm assuming your machine was starting fine with the AAU before you started the installation?

Dave
69S

Yes instructions say ~1 sec contact intervals yet I only follow rules and instructions if I agree too or forced. So maybe you have revealed the one and only hint of Pazion fault as no matter how quick the shorting-contacting intervals it gave bright snappy sparks every time, ugh. Heck it should be able to fire 1000's of times a min so how could I feel guilty by few strokes off instruction at mere human hand speed? Try it you'll live it...

hobot said:

Yes instructions say ~1 sec contact intervals yet I only follow rules and instructions if I agree too or forced. So maybe you have revealed the one and only hint of Pazion fault as no matter how quick the shorting-contacting intervals it gave bright snappy sparks every time, ugh. Heck it should be able to fire 1000's of times a min so how could I feel guilty by few strokes off instruction at mere human hand speed? Try it you'll live it...

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However, there is a reason why it sholdn't be done at intervals of more than 1 second.

http://www.pazon.com/news/9/SUREFIRE-FAULT-FINDING.html

Take the trigger wires, touch together and open, approximately once per second.
Each time you make and break these wires there should be a spark at the plug(s).

Note: the minimum cranking speed for the Sure-Fire ignition module is typically 100rpm, therefore sparks will not be produced if the ignition is triggered slowly by hand.

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Yep that what it says but my Pazion sparked first time every touch even over 1 second apart = less than 100 rpm rhythm threshold, so what's that imply?
Wes and I can kick it faster than 100 rpm threshold so still miserable mystery of silent sulking here. Gave it a break and fixed sinks and chain saws and mower and other stuff Norton interferes with in my life. Even so Ms Peel is continuing money drain that makes Trixie a drop in the bucket even with last weeks wasted order.

hobot said:

Yep that what it says but my Pazion sparked first time every touch even over 1 second apart = less than 100 rpm rhythm threshold, so what's that imply?
Wes and I can kick it faster than 100 rpm threshold so still miserable mystery of silent sulking here. Gave it a break and fixed sinks and chain saws and mower and other stuff Norton interferes with in my life. Even so Ms Peel is continuing money drain that makes Trixie a drop in the bucket even with last weeks wasted order.

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.....should have bought a Tri-Spark! :wink:

hobot said:

Yes instructions say ~1 sec contact intervals yet I only follow rules and instructions if I agree too or forced.

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I have grown to appreciate your posts, Steve....it's taken some time, but I really do read every word you write now. Not trying to be tough on you, fellow Nortoneer, or be critical, but I'm wondering if your above-statement isn't the root of your problem?? I'm so much a newbie at Norton wrenching that I gulp every time I post here, but I'm compelled to write the following:

After my Sparx EI failed, I ordered my Pazon EI and new coils from Andy. Secured the box in a good position and static timed the rotor in 1/2 hour...following the directions exactly and carefully. Eye-balling when static timing had me at 28 degrees with just a nudge of the rotor needed to get me at the recommended 31 degrees full advance. Entire process less than 45 minutes....off and running....bike transformed. Maybe a complete start-over with directions in hand might be a process to follow?? Just my 2-cents.

Ugh, Cme, I'm in a mood so my boosting is only half true, I followed instruction to a Tee in Pazion case, because I was forced too as how else to install right. So even fast trigger wire shorting was not breaking rules, BUT the sparking each time no matter a long delay implies the brain box is bonkers.

I just called Wesley about the prefect Pazion exam and he said So What. He reminded me we both saw it sparking fine then quit after a few cycles while we know for sure coils and power supply are fine. So even if we did get it to start and run we just can not trust it any more not to fail a ways from home. So it ain't just me witnessing an intermittent failure mode that is supposed to be so rare in electronics now that it puts in question the installer-handler not the manufacturing.

Wes also verified we are at a dead end on Pazion unti and must send it back to have it checked and put back contact breakers to ride with with iron butt friends aiming our way soon. AAU may just needed stronger springs or posts bend to tension them more to settle back down to stable idle and engine drag. So Wes saves me again by his country drawl logic as i was going to give it one more install but that would just be stupid of me.

Me, Wes and Rich Stone a few years prior and about to happen again. Rich is a riding maniac, at the tighter sections he does it backward then forwards again sometimes while Wes and me wait in the shade.

Next step Marino at MAP says is send the brain box "amplifier" back to switch out as Pazion charges them $35 to test which eats any profile MAP gets out of it. I"ve 2 AAU's so may try grinding some mass off the weighs to see if that let the booger snick back to idle safety. Its dicey to drag rear brake enough to both slow engine and tire on loose down hill turns. Wes who must deal with worse conditions than me dropped his '69 Bonnie a week ago going nice and slow but apparently ever so slightly dragging front brake in trail braking to end up in ditch with minor damage. Ugh.

Well, Steve, I know it's not any consolation, but mine started right up after installation. You must have gotten a lemon. Ran a bit rough and hard to start with initial timing at 32, but settled down a bit after retarding to 28 at 3K. Wet here today, so no ride. took me about 3 hours but I was really dragging my butt.

Dave
69S

Berry Good News dogt. Pazion has a nice cheap unit with past ignition install weakness evolved out of it, but I hope random mystery in manufacture. Cool out tonight and bug load is low so may start process to revert to contact breakers to ride. I may have a used analog Boyer but don't even care to look for it. ugh.

Oh yeah, I found an old Chevy point advance kit with 3 sets of springs so will fiddle with the AAU and seen if they fit and pull the weight back better.

I have an idea... if its that cheap, buy another one and install it. If it runs, great! Problem solved! No more tail chasing. If not, then you know its something else. Im sure having a spare ignition on the shelf ain't a bad idea. Think of how much time its taking you in terms of money, and lost riding.

caddy chris said:

I have an idea... if its that cheap, buy another one and install it. If it runs, great! Problem solved! No more tail chasing. If not, then you know its something else. Im sure having a spare ignition on the shelf ain't a bad idea. Think of how much time its taking you in terms of money, and lost riding.

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Rather than keeping it as a spare you could probably get most of your money back by selling it on E-Bay as "used one time for ten minutes, works great."

Bob

I had to waste time on first AAU and then the 2nd one which seem quite nice and then the Pazion. Easy to write but took many hours each time to eliminate all the variables and over sights and self doubts. MAP said they will swap me out an amplifier to test that as you suggest. I did mention I've spend like 3'xs as much on Peel during this period and other home-car priority so not real flush with funds. Also buying a hitch and seeking a trailer to take Trixie to 2011 INOA rally. Trixie should have only cost my a couple 1000 to gone through and nice but fate made her cost way more and its wearing on me. 2005 till today I've not gotten maybe 3000 miles 3 months use. If I didn't know how to fix severe spinal and limb injury and went with established medicine route we'd be talking many 10's of 1000's of dollars in the hole.

I didn't want to go electronic on Trixie and still don't, so now have incentive to fix and adapt around the AAU some how or another while awaiting another brain to fry, I mean try.

Hobot..... I have a few spare AAU laying around so I'd be honored to send you one for your B-day !
PM me and tell me where?

Tim_S

Thanks Tim but that puts me back in dilemma of how much time to lose trying to win the AAU stickler. i was gifted a good functioning AAU already so will try it again with new springs.

i was so impressed how nice Trixie behaved when I first got her started after years set up in New Orleans, doing nothing to the points. Only discovered they were staggered timing after the 2nd rebuild from the oil slot piston and Al gasket rubbing till let go. I repeat last time Wes and I had Trixie going on points dialed in, the time light gave stable 28' on the mark readings but then would not idle back w/o brake drag. So next time will see if fuking up on purpose works like it did prior. Did seem to hurt the top end but I don't care to run up to the ton on Trixie, just tool around with Harleys and commuting and errands, oh yeah and show off hand starting.

rx7171 said:

Rather than keeping it as a spare you could probably get most of your money back by selling it on E-Bay as "used one time for ten minutes, works great."Bob

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Pazon has a 7 1/2 year warranty Just send it back by post and they will honor it and even give you an explaination. Jeeez, Ebay's got a bad 'nuff reputation as its already! :roll:

Ummmmmmmm.....

I seem to recall someone smarter than me stating:

"90% of all electrical problems are carburation"

Sounds like your fuel flow is shy...

Begging a senior's pardon but idle was wonderful, slow, even, steady and on going for as long as I could tolerate on the points - with lesion learned here that its the worse state for an good engine and a destructive state for new lifter surface break in. So all told, only a few minutes, a few seconds at a time allowed to idle before rev'd up or shut down. Cables were still adjusted for equal open/close slides and with the slide screws backed all the way out idle was like 300 rpm, even on one jug which scared me so shut down or rev'd up soon as realized carbs not an issue.

First ride on most worn AAU was pretty nice 6.5 miles to hwy and couple miles up to 70 then returned. A week of labor later on 2nd AAU took THE Gravel the other more adventure way 7 miles till a river washout and returned, but scared me as w/o engine drag on loose down hill off slope sharps. So ~33 miles on Amals running fine in conditions that needed delicate response. But I am a seasoned risk taker and did not open the 3 yr stored carbs but did run a small drill in pilots jet just to be traditional. I'd long ago diddled float level to get 1.5 turns out and when dialing idle in found 1.5 was still the best. The more sloppy the spread of contact side to side timing the better behaved Trixie was and thought we'd licked her **until we got both contacts dead on Combat 28' and remarkably stable on time light, ugh.

I was so confident the Pazion was going to solve """slow""" return to idle I'd got Trixie insured and tagged to avoid that expense in tickets over no Dr. LIc and speeding. Even 'slow poke' Wes, cruises about 70 on 55 mph hyw. On Ms Peel I'd be tempted to just flat run away till out of sight then hit THE Gravel like Brer' 'Rabbit thrown into the Briar Patch to escape the predators.