Norman White PR starting problems

maylar · Nov 12, 2021

PM999S said:
Having had no joy with a healthy battery from my Roadster (works perfectly with Boyer ignition) or with using spray starter I'm firmly moving towards a timing issue. That said, I'm struggling to find fitting instructions online for the Lucas AB15 Hall Effect ignition before starting to fiddle around with the static timing. Anyone knows where I can source this?

Not sure if it covers the AB15, but I found this:
https://partsbooks.britishonly.com/partsbooks/PDF_Files/rita/ritacombined.pdf

PM999S · Nov 12, 2021

maylar said:
Not sure if it covers the AB15, but I found this:
https://partsbooks.britishonly.com/partsbooks/PDF_Files/rita/ritacombined.pdf

Thanks for that and great to have as a reference, just have to invest in a timing disc now! That said, I've just spoken to Norman and he says its highly unlikely to have moved so a part strip of the carb bowls and jet blocks to check for gunk build up is his first suggestion.

maylar · Nov 12, 2021

But it didn't fire up with the starting ether? That bypasses the carbs.

Mart UK · Nov 12, 2021

PM999S said:
Just put a yard's worth of a pole down both and they appear completely clear at least until the first bend in the pipes..

Try a vacuum cleaner hose, turned on, to see if a squirrel stored its nuts. Daft and very unlikely, but I saw one example on YouTube with peanuts in the combustion chamber! Expect it's something more mundane though.

concours · Nov 12, 2021

PM999S said:
The auction house, a very well know and reputable company, said the previous owner had it running in March shortly after Norman had finished the build, so, no, I had to take it in good faith that it had been running. I have since been in brief communication with the previous owner who gave me a short list of its specs but has thrown away most of the documentation in some disgust after spending too much money on it!

Mart UK said:
Try a vacuum cleaner hose, turned on, to see if a squirrel stored its nuts. Daft and very unlikely, but I saw one example on YouTube with peanuts in the combustion chamber! Expect it's something more mundane though.

I've had nests built with rock wool insulation. I replaced the (snowmobile) muffler as it wouldn't clean out.

storm42 · Nov 12, 2021

PM999S said:
Just put a yard's worth of a pole down both and they appear completely clear at least until the first bend in the pipes..

Ay, just a thought, unfortunately when something won't work when there seem to be nothing obviously wrong, even the daft things need to be checked.

SteveA · Nov 12, 2021

PM999S said:
The auction house, a very well know and reputable company, said the previous owner had it running in March shortly after Norman had finished the build, so, no, I had to take it in good faith that it had been running. I have since been in brief communication with the previous owner who gave me a short list of its specs but has thrown away most of the documentation in some disgust after spending too much money on it!

You need to talk to Norman, he is extremely helpful.

SteveA · Nov 12, 2021

PM999S said:
Would the static timing be like the Boyer set at 31 degrees TDC?

Last time I spoke to Norman about fully advanced timing he said, '31 degrees, why would you use anything else!'

So 31 degrees it will be if set by Norman.

SteveA · Nov 12, 2021

kommando said:
Maybe speak to Norman first as he will know if he ever tested the engine running or not, if the owner gave up after spending £'s then its possible it has never run.

Good point, but honestly, I can't imagine Norman delivering it without having it running!

oldmikew · Nov 12, 2021

SteveA said:
Good point, but honestly, I can't imagine Norman delivering it without having it running!

Ah, but it might have been tampered with since it left Norman...

SteveA · Nov 12, 2021

PM999S said:
Would the static timing be like the Boyer set at 31 degrees TDC?

We need to make sure we understand each other here. The 31 degree before TDC figure is fully advanced. You can check it statically if there is a suitable timing mark.

I am sure you mean fully advanced, static timing is normally just a few degrees, maybe 10, depending on system.

SteveA · Nov 12, 2021

oldmikew said:
Ah, but it might have been tampered with since it left Norman...

Yes of course.

SteveA · Nov 12, 2021

maylar said:
Not sure if it covers the AB15, but I found this:
https://partsbooks.britishonly.com/partsbooks/PDF_Files/rita/ritacombined.pdf

Almost 100% that does not cover AB15, it does cover AB5 and AB11 amplifiers. They date back to the '70s and were used on the works Nortons! They were inductive pickup, hence the reference to a reluctor.

Mistral used to repair them and made replica amplifiers at one stage. Not today.

Hall Effect is generally used in later technology ignitions.

Fast Eddie · Nov 12, 2021

OP, you’re running MK2s and are not very familiar with them right?

You do know the choke / cold start lever works the opposite to MK1s?

Meaning (if they‘re cable operated):

Cable slack = choke OFF.

Cable pulled tight = choke ON.

concours · Nov 13, 2021

PM999S said:
The auction house, a very well know and reputable company, said the previous owner had it running in March shortly after Norman had finished the build, so, no, I had to take it in good faith that it had been running. I have since been in brief communication with the previous owner who gave me a short list of its specs but has thrown away most of the documentation in some disgust after spending too much money on it!

To be clear, not suggesting the bike was misrepresented, nor challenging the auction house integrity. Rather, communication, especially amongst us old codger motorcyclists wearing rose colored glasses can get murky when stories get re-told. (I trust we all played the game in school of tell the person at the desk next to you, all around the room)
One of our most well-known & respected vintage motorcycle auction companies here has this on the website:

Because, well, all they can do is pass along what they are told. They cannot/do not, do mechanical inspections, or offer any of those services.

The bike will be made to run, with patience & perseverance.

PM999S · Nov 13, 2021

Fast Eddie said:
OP, you’re running MK2s and are not very familiar with them right?

You do know the choke / cold start lever works the opposite to MK1s?

Meaning (if they‘re cable operated):

Cable slack = choke OFF.

Cable pulled tight = choke ON.

The Mk11s are 34mm smooth bore and have a joint push down choke which is the only way to get one of the cylinders sparodically coughing and throwing out a bit of vapour from the exhaust.

PM999S · Nov 13, 2021

SteveA said:
Almost 100% that does not cover AB15, it does cover AB5 and AB11 amplifiers. They date back to the '70s and were used on the works Nortons! They were inductive pickup, hence the reference to a reluctor.

Mistral used to repair them and made replica amplifiers at one stage. Not today.

Hall Effect is generally used in later technology ignitions.

I've spoken again to Norman and he says the attached pic shows the small timing window in his special primary case set up which will show the timing mark at 28 degrees when strobed. My one extra confusion is that the timing stator is not on the timing case side as the usual Boyer setup but seems to have its wire coming out of the back of the primary case. Is anyone familiar with this set-up?

maylar · Nov 13, 2021

PM999S said:
I've spoken again to Norman and he says the attached pic shows the small timing window in his special primary case set up which will show the timing mark at 28 degrees when strobed. My one extra confusion is that the timing stator is not on the timing case side as the usual Boyer setup but seems to have its wire coming out of the back of the primary case. Is anyone familiar with this set-up?View attachment 82771

What are we looking at here? Is this a custom made machine? Got more pics?

storm42 · Nov 13, 2021

Probably won't help, but opening the throttle with this type of choke will defeat it, I find that I have to let the motor start with the throttle shut and slowly open it when it is running. Also because this type of choke can allow quite a lot of fuel through with the throttle shut and I believe you have said the plugs are wet which sort of proves you have fuel then the fault probably lies elsewhere.

You say you have a good spark so a timing check is in order. Like Concours post 54 says there is an order to trouble shooting.

Fast Eddie · Nov 13, 2021

PM999S said:
I've spoken again to Norman and he says the attached pic shows the small timing window in his special primary case set up which will show the timing mark at 28 degrees when strobed. My one extra confusion is that the timing stator is not on the timing case side as the usual Boyer setup but seems to have its wire coming out of the back of the primary case. Is anyone familiar with this set-up?View attachment 82771

Looks like you have a crank triggered ign?

That is definitely not standard. But Steve Maney et al all did this.

Basically it looks like you have quite a special machine. It also seems that perhaps you don’t fully realise what you’ve got.

I would consider an investment in Normans time (If he’s willing) to take the bike to him, let him give it a once over, and talk you through the bike, what’s special / different and what you need to know.

Norman White PR starting problems

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