Norman White PR starting problems

PM999S · Nov 9, 2021

Just a quick update - I've drained 700ml from the sump without affecting the dip-stick level that I'd earlier topped up a little. Still just sparodic cough from left hand cylinder and nothing from right. Plugs out and both soaked in fuel and sparking well when kicked over against the head. I'll try the start spray but increasingly I'm thinking timing?

Fast Eddie · Nov 9, 2021

Why would the timing slip?

Thats why someone suggested trying a new battery earlier, an undercharged battery, or a battery with a bad cell, can fail to give the EI what it needs, the result is ign timing all over the place.

If you’ve drained that much oil out of sump and have turned it over as much as you’ve said, you’re really lucky to have not blown the primary side oil seal!

What I can’t understand though, is if you’ve turned it over that much, why is the sump still so full?

You are turning the engine over on the rollers? Not just skidding when it hits compression or similar?

PM999S · Nov 9, 2021

Yes the motor was been spinning in gear on the starter rollers. It's possible some oil was scavanged back because when I first looked at the oil level it was nowhere near the dip stick but before I topped up to midway after a lot of start attempts, it had returned to a smidge on the end of the stick. Naturally, I won't be pouring all the oil from the sump back into the tank.
As to the battery, it was flat when I received the bike but did eventually repair charge to full and I have been keeping it on a solar panel charge since. That said, the Roadster's battery is always on float charge so I will try swapping them over to see if that helps the timing.

Fast Eddie said:
Why would the timing slip?

Thats why someone suggested trying a new battery earlier, an undercharged battery, or a battery with a bad cell, can fail to give the EI what it needs, the result is ign timing all over the place.

If you’ve drained that much oil out of sump and have turned it over as much as you’ve said, you’re really lucky to have not blown the primary side oil seal!

What I can’t understand though, is if you’ve turned it over that much, why is the sump still so full?

You are turning the engine over on the rollers? Not just skidding when it hits compression or similar?

baz · Nov 9, 2021

olympus said:
Engines get addicted to Easy start.... like drugs, once used hard to get them off

Is this true that an engine becomes used to starting fluid?
I've heard people say it before

kommando · Nov 9, 2021

baz said:
Is this true that an engine becomes used to starting fluid?
I've heard people say it before

Only if you do not fix the underlying issue, apply no fix then you need to continue to use the ether juice every start. Its useful when used properly but if you never fix why you need it then not so useful and expensive.

oldmikew · Nov 9, 2021

Thought it was diesel engines that became addicted to easy -start.... be very careful with a waste spark petrol engine you might easily have a fire.... WD40 will also (at owners risk) do the trick- cheaper and less volatile

PM999S · Nov 10, 2021

Another quick update, I've tried again with a battery charged to 100% on my smart charger overnight and still no change just sparodic coughs from the right cylinder and nothing from the left. One odd thing is that when I try opening the throttle, within a couple of engine cycles the roller can't turn the engine and jams up... I've some start spray ordered but still don't see how much difference it can make when both plugs are wet with fuel.

olympus · Nov 10, 2021

baz said:
Is this true that an engine becomes used to starting fluid?
I've heard people say it before

Hi Baz, it is true from my many years in the motor trade and attempting to start many "dogs" the engines are normally well worn or have underlying issues to be honest... but as soon as they sniff the starting fluid, its a slippery slope to them always needing it

Fast Eddie · Nov 10, 2021

PM999S said:
Another quick update, I've tried again with a battery charged to 100% on my smart charger overnight and still no change just sparodic coughs from the right cylinder and nothing from the left. One odd thing is that when I try opening the throttle, within a couple of engine cycles the roller can't turn the engine and jams up... I've some start spray ordered but still don't see how much difference it can make when both plugs are wet with fuel.

What gear do you have the bike in?

PM999S · Nov 10, 2021

Gear lever is reversed for rearsets so its one up from neutral, being second on a five speed box.

Fast Eddie · Nov 10, 2021

PM999S said:
Gear lever is reversed for rearsets so its one up from neutral, being second on a five speed box.

If it’s locking up your starters, surely you should try a higher gear?

concours · Nov 10, 2021

OP, please tell us more about your troubleshooting skillset.
We've been through so many of these 'no starts", and mostly end up they needed the simplest of tests/repairs to run.
Can you/have you ever clean out idle circuit passages in carburetors before? Have you cleaned these MKII's as previously mentioned? The previously mentioned teaspoon of fuel dribbled in each spark plug hole is a great acid-test, did you do it? Have you tried ether? ("Easy-Start")
All these things are an easy way to determine which fork in the road to go down.

PM999S · Nov 10, 2021

Fast Eddie said:
If it’s locking up your starters, surely you should try a higher gear?

Yes I will try using a higher gear although the little life I'm getting is only with full choke so I'm not sure giving it more air will help. As to #Concours questions I've stripped and cleaned Mk1s before but not these smooth bore 34mm Mk11s so will have to get a diagram when I have to strip them which might well be only thing left after retarding the ignition?

maylar · Nov 10, 2021

Bypass the kill switch?

concours · Nov 10, 2021

PM999S said:
Yes I will try using a higher gear although the little life I'm getting is only with full choke so I'm not sure giving it more air will help. As to #Concours questions I've stripped and cleaned Mk1s before but not these smooth bore 34mm Mk11s so will have to get a diagram when I have to strip them which might well be only thing left after retarding the ignition?

TEST, don't guess.
Fuel/ether give a 2 second startup?

Schwany · Nov 10, 2021

I have not worked on an Amal MkII, but just looking at them they are definitely simple, particularly if like a Mikuni VM34. Don't be intimidated by the carburetors. Pull and clean. It's not guessing, it's what should be done to rule out blocked fuel circuits, and is common troubleshooting technique.

Before taking the carburetors off, you should check to be sure plenty of fuel is getting into the fuel bowls. Unscrew that main jet access nut on the bottom of the fuel bowl with a small bowl/container under the carburetor and the pet cock off. Fuel should come out. With the container still in place open the pet cock, fuel should pour out at that point. Close the pet cock. If fuel does not pour out of the bottom of the float bowl, you'll know there is an issue inside the float bowl or at the pet cock. Could be a couple of things preventing proper fuel flow, but I might be guessing and we can't have that. Anyway, you can address all of it with the carburetors off and on the bench.

I did not read any of the other replies, so if I repeated any wisdom my bad.

concours · Nov 10, 2021

Schwany said:
I have not worked on an Amal MkII, but just looking at them they are definitely simple, particularly if like a Mikuni VM34. Don't be intimidated by the carburetors. Pull and clean. It's not guessing, it's what should be done to rule out blocked fuel circuits, and is common troubleshooting technique.

Before taking the carburetors off, you should check to be sure plenty of fuel is getting into the fuel bowls. Unscrew that main jet access nut on the bottom of the fuel bowl with a small bowl/container under the carburetor and the pet cock off. Fuel should come out. With the container still in place open the pet cock, fuel should pour out at that point. Close the pet cock. If fuel does not pour out of the bottom of the float bowl, you'll know there is an issue inside the float bowl or at the pet cock. Could be a couple of things preventing proper fuel flow, but I might be guessing and we can't have that. Anyway, you can address all of it with the carburetors off and on the bench.

I did not read any of the other replies, so if I repeated any wisdom my bad.

Doing a 30 second test before disassembling carburetors confirms viability of the compression and ignition. Then after it is heard running two seconds, a carb D&C is warranted. By choosing to do the carbs first, if it still doesn't start, we don't know if the person cleaning the carbs did a thorough, correct job, or created an additional problem. The sequence of events is crucial to a fast, smooth troubleshooting process.

SteveA · Nov 10, 2021

Fast Eddie said:
If it’s locking up your starters, surely you should try a higher gear?

The sticky label on my rollers says use 3rd, so I always use 2nd with my Rickman......close ratio TTi box! It never locks anything unless the batterie(s) are low on charge!

But I use 3rd on absolutely anything else, in particular 500 singles, which I also spin up with the decompressor pulled in.

SteveA · Nov 10, 2021

PM999S said:
Yes I will try using a higher gear although the little life I'm getting is only with full choke so I'm not sure giving it more air will help. As to #Concours questions I've stripped and cleaned Mk1s before but not these smooth bore 34mm Mk11s so will have to get a diagram when I have to strip them which might well be only thing left after retarding the ignition?

You are overthinking this, the higher gear will simply give more leverage to the starter rollers to overcome the compression.

If you can strip a Mk1 or a Mikuni an Amal MkII won't be a big issue.

Slide and needle comes out easier than on a MK1 with chokes. Bowl has 4 screws instead of 2, the jets are the same....little holes get poked with piano wire just the same....

One issue I have had several times with Amals is the needle dropping out of the clip!! But usually that leads to you being able to start it on the choke circuit, but it won't pick up when you open the throttle.

concours · Nov 10, 2021

PM999S said:
Another quick update, I've tried again with a battery charged to 100% on my smart charger overnight and still no change just sparodic coughs from the right cylinder and nothing from the left. One odd thing is that when I try opening the throttle, within a couple of engine cycles the roller can't turn the engine and jams up... I've some start spray ordered but still don't see how much difference it can make when both plugs are wet with fuel.

Try it witha wide open throttle. The lack of vacuum stops fuel being drawn up from the bowl, fresh air coming through soon happens across the correct mixture for viable combustion, even if only for a moment. The engine speaks... be sure to listen.

Norman White PR starting problems

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