New Projects

storm42 said:

I suppose a stiff warning that the warranty is void if high sulfur fuel is used and if it has been it would be very obvious.

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What warranty? Me thinks STS / CNW is better off selling theses cylinders "for racing purposes" only.

BMW stopped using Nicasil by 1997 (at least in car engines) because a superior process became available: Alusil.

There are two detrimental processes going on in an engine which has Nikasil coated cylinders. Some facts:

1) Sulfur is found in petrol as well as oils. In regulated markets the sulfur content in petrol is 5 to 20 ppm, in other markets it may be substantially more.
Sulfur content in typical dual grade oils according to API-SN (for engines made before 2011) is 2000 ppm.

2) Sulfur is a strong attacker on nickel, which is the matrix material of Nikasil plating. There is practically no composition in which nickel is an ingredient that isn't cracked by sulfur. Nickel and sulfur forms nickel-sulfide (NiS), which crumbles and will be washed out with exhaust gases, or trapped by lube oil which then takes on a shade of silver. This process will gradually remove the coating and is an ongoing process, the speed of which depends on several factors, e.g. pressure, temperature, revs, and the amount of reactive sulfur in petrol and lube oil. (Source: Maserati Forum)

3) The sulfur-Nikasil reaction predominantly takes place at the top of the cylinder bore, where there is most pressure and contact between combustion gases and the cylinder lining of Nikasil plating. The break down process over time causes an increased gap between piston and cylinder, resulting in lower compression, an ingress of combustion gases to the crankcase ("leak-down"), and ever increasing oil consumption. Poor sealing of piston rings and increased friction will damage the rings and ultimately the piston itself.

4) Free sulfur is water-soluble, a by-product of the combustion of petrol, which results in the formation of sulfuric acid. The latter is a very aggressive acid. The reaction goes like this: "O2 + S -> S02; SO2 + H2O -> H2SO3" (sulfuric acid) which allows nickel to corrode more than an iron liner would have. Formation of sulfuric acid is exacerbated in large capacity engines such as V8 and V12 engines, due to the fact that these engines run relatively cooler and at a lower compression than smaller engines. Over time the sulfuric acid will corrode the Nikasil lining causing the cylinder walls to become scored, sometimes through the coating and into the underlying engine block. The corrosion takes place along the entire length of the lined cylinders. This in turn causes the cylinders and pistons to lose compression, wear to accelerate and ultimately leads to premature engine failure.
(Sources: Maserati Forum; BMW Repair Guide Forum)

https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a6643/top-automotive-engineering-failures-jaguar-nikasil-v8/
https://rennlist.com/forums/attachm...-the-block-be-honed-alusil-nikasil-blocks.pdf

-Knut

mdt-son said:

What warranty? Me thinks STS / CNW is better off selling theses cylinders "for racing purposes" only.

BMW stopped using Nicasil by 1997 (at least in car engines) because a superior process became available: Alusil.

There are two detrimental processes going on in an engine which has Nikasil coated cylinders. Some facts:

1) Sulfur is found in petrol as well as oils. In regulated markets the sulfur content in petrol is 5 to 20 ppm, in other markets it may be substantially more.
Sulfur content in typical dual grade oils according to API-SN (for engines made before 2011) is 2000 ppm.

2) Sulfur is a strong attacker on nickel, which is the matrix material of Nikasil plating. There is practically no composition in which nickel is an ingredient that isn't cracked by sulfur. Nickel and sulfur forms nickel-sulfide (NiS), which crumbles and will be washed out with exhaust gases, or trapped by lube oil which then takes on a shade of silver. This process will gradually remove the coating and is an ongoing process, the speed of which depends on several factors, e.g. pressure, temperature, revs, and the amount of reactive sulfur in petrol and lube oil. (Source: Maserati Forum)

3) The sulfur-Nikasil reaction predominantly takes place at the top of the cylinder bore, where there is most pressure and contact between compustion gases and the cylinder lining of Nikasil plating. The break down process over time causes increased gap between piston and cylinder, resulting in lower compression, an ingress of combustion gases to the crankcase ("leak-down"), and ever increasing oil consumption. Poor sealing of piston rings and increased friction will damage the rings and ultimately the piston itself.

4) Free sulfur is water-soluble, a by-product of the combustion of petrol, which results in the formation of sulfuric acid. The latter is a very aggressive acid. The reaction goes like this: "O2 + S -> S02; SO2 + H2O -> H2SO3" (sulfuric acid) which allows nickel to corrode more than an iron liner would have. Formation of sulfuric acid is exacerbated in large capacity engines such as V8 and V12 engines, due to the fact that these engines run relatively cooler and at a lower compression than smaller engines. Over time the sulfuric acid will corrode the Nikasil lining causing the cylinder walls to become scored, sometimes through the coating and into the underlying engine block. The corrosion takes place along the entire length of the lined cylinders. This in turn causes the cylinders and pistons to lose compression, wear to accelerate and ultimately leads to premature engine failure.
(Sources: Maserati Forum; BMW Repair Guide Forum)

https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a6643/top-automotive-engineering-failures-jaguar-nikasil-v8/
https://rennlist.com/forums/attachm...-the-block-be-honed-alusil-nikasil-blocks.pdf

-Knut

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Knut

I just had a long conversation with Rod Heaton at Millennium Technologies (our Nikasil vendor) about the issue you have raised. He is going to review the data you have provided. He may address the issue in this thread, as I have given him links to the pages in this thread concerning the topics brought up by you.

He has given me some pretty impressive numbers and names of companies that are using Nikasil as their primary coating for cylinders. The biggest one is Honda, which according to Rod, did over 18 million cylinders for Powersport application (motorcycles) in 2018. I have asked Rod to give some verifiable data that this process (Nikasil) is commonly, and currently, used by major manufacturers.

I do not disregard your comments, and I am trying to verify what I believed to be a good coating option, is actually that, "a good coating option"

Seems like the sulphur/ nicasil issue was solved for North America in 2000 with Tier 2 fuel.
This removed up to 90% of the sulphur in gasoline.
Tier 3 came in in 2017. That removed even more sulphur.
I think it is accurate to say that today's fuel in North America is extremely low sulphur.
I'm not sure about Europe and UK fuels, that would be worth investigating.

I have an 05 Daytona 955i with Nicasil.
It hasn't many miles on, but I do follow those bikes . That engine is typically bullet proof to well over 100,000 miles.
The sulphur in gas with Nicasil definitely was a big problem in the 80 and 90s when Alusil was developed.
From my reading, sulphur issue dealt with, Alusil is nowhere near as long life as Nicasil.

https://www.epa.gov/gasoline-standards/gasoline-sulfur

t ingermanson said:

What are the chances of pre-Commando (Dominator) barrels? They have gotten very thin on the ground.

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We make several barrels now, so a Dominator barrel is not out of the question. Is there one barrel for all Dominators, or variants? Then we would need a fairly good barrel to laser scan to produce our 3D model for tool path. So, next question is, do you have a barrel I can scan?

Hi John,

I don't want to discourage your endeavors, on the contrary, I am applauding them. In my two postings I have assembled some facts and observations by others.

Nikasil is probably acceptable for powersport motors, because rebuilds are frequent (that is probably Honda's reasoning). From what I've read one can expect 200-300 operating hours before re-plating is required. It will depend on the plating thickness of course. That is hardly acceptable for a road bike, and from what I've collected in a quick scan, Honda does not use Nikasil plating for their CBR line of road bikes - they come with Alusil cylinders, if my information is correct. So, the processes to employ really depends on the intended use. For a classic bike which in most cases won't do a high mileage, Nikasil may be appropriate.

I look forward to reading the information provided by Rod Heaton.

-Knut

Knut- please see the above EPA info on extreme low sulphur fuels post 2000.
Daytona 675/765 also run Nicasil from 2013 on.
There have been squillions of those built and they are another Nicasil engine that is hard to kill.


Glen

Hi All,
Let me just state I'm truly here out of respect for G81 Can cycle I've been working with him for a few years and know him to be upstanding. Oh Yeah, I'm also a Capitalist and need him to sell these cylinders so, I can continue to buy old rusty motorbikes! I need to say that I typically stay away from forums and such as I'm intolerant of misinformation given by self proclaimed experts. In no way do I claim to be an expert. By way of qualification, I will tell you I am an ASE certified Master Technician for the last 31 years. I am not a chemist, engineer, or manufacturing person. With that being said, I've perused some of the information and articles presented in this string. I've seen some misinformation and some accurate information misapplied to what is happening with the cylinders being manufactured. Our company, Millennium Technologies, Plates between 80,000 - 100,000 cylinders per year. We only plate Nikasil and we are an OEM plater for several manufacturers. We are the only MAHLE authorized machining facility in North America. We are also the plating providers for LN Engineering, Nickey cylinders, EBS, CylinderWorks, Tom Morgan Racing, KWS Motorsports, KTM Orange Brigrade. Yoshimura, Yamaha Factory Racing, blah, blah, blah. I'm aware this is anectdotal but my point is this; If you own a motorsport vehicle or European auto you are likely using our product. I hope this next statement doesn't get lost in this huge rambling?!! The documents and arguments I read here (to be honest, I quickly scanned them and didn't read them thoroughly) are irrelevant to the cylinders currently being machined by G81. Don't lose your marbles, the articles are spot on for the engines they were referring to. I won't argue that point. Fair enough? I won't (unless you all want me to) address some of the things I did see that are inaccurate in previously posted articles. Instead, if there are specific questions or concerns let me help to understand them by asking specific and direct questions. Let me also add this bit of info real quick before I let you all have your chance to waylay me. All of the large motorcycle manufacturers, Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, KTM started the changeover to aluminum cast nikasil plated cylinders and engines in the 80's. Most of them were making 90% or greater of their production machines with nikasil plated cylinders. That is a ton of customer tested R&D over the last nearly 30 years. Especially when you consider that Honda alone in 2018 made over 18 million motorcycles with a 90% of them being plated cylinders! I would also like all of you to know that I have personally signed a Non Disclosure Agreement (NDA) with Norton Motorcycles and that is all I will say about that, you do the math. P.S> I'm at work and not quarantined so be patient if it takes me a minute to respond.

worntorn said:

I have an 05 Daytona 955i with Nicasil.
It hasn't many miles on, but I do follow those bikes . That engine is typically bullet proof to well over 100,000 miles.
The sulphur in gas with Nicasil definitely was a big problem in the 80 and 90s when Alusil was developed.
From my reading, sulphur issue dealt with, Alusil is nowhere near as long life as Nicasil.

Click to expand...

Glen,

Nikasil plating (and similar related processes) is typically used in competition motors and supersport bikes. I believe the Daytona was the only Triumph model which received this design feature by 2006-7. I don't know the Daytona engine or rider's experience with them, but a life expectancy of 100,000 miles (160,000 km) without re-plating is not very likely.
I have observed the reported life of Ducati supersport model engines and the wear limit seems to be reached at 30,000 to 40,000 km. That's about 350 hours of operation.

The current Ducati Superquadro engine launched 2011 has aluminum cylinders onto which "Cermetal" bore plating is applied, a hardening process developed by the Italian company Tecnol and which is similar to Nikasil. Source: Article below. (This information needs to be confirmed and further researched.)

https://www.cycleworld.com/2014/07/24/ducati-899-panigale-superquadro-engine-technical-analysis/


-Knut

worntorn said:

From my reading, sulphur issue dealt with, Alusil is nowhere near as long life as Nicasil.

Click to expand...

Glen,

I had a look at the EPA article. Tier 2 is less strict. Tier 3 requires oil companies to supply fossile fuels having 10 ppm of sulfur on average from 2017 onwards. The strictest requirements are for diesel, so petrol may still contain a bit more sulfur. In my posting above I quoted 5 to 20 ppm sulfur content in regulated markets. Please do not forget the sulfur content in lube oil also has a bearing.

You may assume the sulphur issue related to Nikasil has passed. Maybe so for North America and Europe, but I'd like to read an independent study concluding similarly. As for your second statement, what is your source of information? It doesn't make sense, knowing that all premium german car makers (and probably japanese as well) employ this process for the last 20 years.

-Knut

As I mentioned, the 955 Daytona post 2002 used Nicasil and those are long life engines
Same with the 675 Triple after 2013.

Ducati and BMW are the two most unreliable motorcycle brands built today. BMW cars may be at price premium but they also score near bottom in JD Power and other reliability surveys.

"BMW Reliability Rating is 2.5 out of 5.0, which ranks it 30th out of 32 for all car brands."

Probably best to look at the more reliable brands to get an idea of what works.

We are at Tier 3 now in North America. No need to worry about fuel types that no longer exist ( In North America at least)

Glen

G81 Can Cycle said:

Thanks for the information. I will discuss this issue with the company that does the Nikasil work. My experience with Nikasil is on my race bikes, and it has worked well, but I do use high grade racing fuel for these bikes. But, I believe Nikasil is widely used on many sport bikes today, without major problems. Your suggestions of a disclaimer about using high Sulphur fuels may be a good idea

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I first came across Nikasil on race bikes, Tz Yamaha if i remember right, they worked well until the inevitable seizure, then it was a big problem getting them re-done.

The last failure I know about was only 3 months ago, A friend of mine who can be slightly, shall we say, a bit wayward, was using cherry (Farmers diesel ie tax free) in his Saab, about a year ago the car was becoming difficult to start, it quickly deteriorated and one day on the motorway, it just stopped, when he tried to restart it, it was spinning over as if there was no head on it. we put the loss of compression down to the sulfur.

I would go with what worntorn has said about the lack of sulfer in modern fuels and also motorcycles do tend to get their oil changed more often than is necessary which would also lessen any chance of nasty chemical build up and therefor failure.

Wasn't trying to put you off your excellent project but it is always good to be aware of potential problems.

Ha, just read Rodney Heatons post so i will say the last line could read, potential problems that don't exist Although I do believe Honda uses Alusil.

worntorn said:

Probably best to look at the more reliable brands to get an idea of what works.

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You are completely convinced Nikasil is the only viable bore treatment, which is your right. I try to keep an open mind on this issue.

Your statement re. the most unreliable motorcycle brands built today is your personal opinion I guess. True or not, reliability issues can be many things.
Mentioning the occurrence of electrical malfunctions etc. in this thread is rather playing off the field.

The claimed reliability issues are not related to accelerated cylinder wear, neither for bikes nor for cars, are they?

-Knut

Matchless said:

John, with your knowledge & superb facillities, when you get some time (next week perhaps) what about making cranks. Now that Mr Maney has semi retired there is nobody making strong cranks as far as I'm aware. I will buy one for my latest project as the thought of the standard one letting go fills me with dread. It is with good reason both my Commandos have Maney cranks.

Martyn.

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What about Rody Machining? Greg Bladus has made quite a few one piece Norton crankshafts in the past few years. They are very high quality.



Rody Machining, 860 N Holbrook St, Plymouth, MI 48170
(734) 459-9335.

Ken

mdt-son said:

You are completely convinced Nikasil is the only viable bore treatment, which is your right. I try to keep an open mind on this issue.

Your statement re. the most unreliable motorcycle brands built today is your personal opinion I guess.



-Knut

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My statement about the reliability of those two brands is based on the outcome of the largest modern motorcycle reliability survey ever done.
When folks quote BMW as " premium brand" to add weight, it's good to know that the emperor has no clothes these days. The lack of reliability with modern day BMW (and Mercedes) isn't widely known about for some reason.

I know Nicasil works on the Triumphs and that Triumph is one of the more reliable brands.
Honda had some big problems with Alusil on the CBRS 03-08. Knowing Honda, they will have figured it out by now or a created a coating of their own. Suzuki has their own version of Nicasil.
Other coatings might work as well.

There are plenty of high mileage Daytonas discussed on the Triumphrat forum. They sometimes have charging problems and other problems, but Nicasil bore wear/failure is not a problem that has come up.

I think you might be looking at the 1980s/90s data and fuel sulphur problem without acknowledging that the fuel has changed to eliminate this problem.

Glen

Hey Storm42. You clearly understand. Not to discredit the issues with sulfur but many concerns are attributed to Nikasil that are in fact poor design or improper assembly and/or tuning. To be fair, the sulfur issue isn't truly a nikasil problem. Nikasil was the wrong coating for those particular engines. We plate Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche cylinders every day and many of them will exceed 100,000 miles. I'm not aware of any Alusil bores from Honda. Back in the early 70"s with bikes like the Elsinores they did use chrome plated bores. They did that with many of the CR's of the early 80's too. I'd find it hard to believe if they didn't do some Alusil bores. I believe the cylinders we get from customers for repairs are indeed Nikasil.

@worntorn ALusil CBR600's 03 - 08 ?? I've never seen an 03 - 06 CBR600 (including euro and Japanese samples) that were anything but factory cast in, cast iron with no coating at all. Starting in 07 and through 08 blocks with the same casting numbers would arrive either with cast in, cast iron or a plated aluminum casting. (*think about that nightmare same factory casting #'s with two completely different products!). I can't honestly say the 07 - 08 plated bores were nikasil or Alusil. After 08 I've never seen anything but Nikasil plated CBR600's FWIW

@worntorn Not dissing you. You get it. Was just curious about the CBR thing.

Is there a plating that will increase the life expectancy of old Norton owners?

Meanwhile, I'd love to try my best to wear out one of these new billet/Nikasil Norton cylinders!


Glen

Well this certainly has become a typical "Access Norton" post. LOL

Let me say something about this post. I asked for permission from Jerry to show what we are making. It is obviously a blatant sales pitch. But I do want to get feedback, because the end users (customers) are on this site, so I want to know what you think. I am certainly not going to be able to please everyone, but I do want to make a reliable product, at a reasonable price.

Thanks for everyone's input.

And here is another pic of the cylinder More tool path completed

worntorn said:

My statement about the reliability of those two brands is based on the outcome of the largest modern motorcycle reliability survey ever done.
....
I think you might be looking at the 1980s/90s data and fuel sulphur problem without acknowledging that the fuel has changed to eliminate this problem.

Click to expand...

Hi Glen,

No need to make a heated argument over these issues. The motorcycle reliability survey you refer to isn't a scientifically conducted survey, and it's also highly controversial, from what I read. Of course there is a difference in service requirements if you drive your bike 50,000 miles or just 5,000 miles. If such factors aren't weighted, the outcome is of little value ... to me, at least.

https://www.latimes.com/business/au...eports-motorcycle-ratings-20160127-story.html

As for reduced sulfur in fuels, the objective was allowing modern cleansing technologies to be introduced, particularly for trucks and other heavy machinery, and not to save the Nicasil coating. If it had such a side effect, then fine - we can all be pleased.

-Knut

Hey Knut, no heat here, I just don't see Nikasil as a problem for the reasons I mention. I've also seen some high mileage Nikasil bikes. I test rode a 65,000 mile Daytona in California. It was pretty beat up cosmetically but it ran the same as my 12,000 mile Daytona, perfect.

So I disagree with you on this.

And I just don't follow BMW as they are making so many mistakes these days.



Glen

Rodney Heaton said:

Hey Storm42. You clearly understand. Not to discredit the issues with sulfur but many concerns are attributed to Nikasil that are in fact poor design or improper assembly and/or tuning. To be fair, the sulfur issue isn't truly a nikasil problem. Nikasil was the wrong coating for those particular engines. We plate Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche cylinders every day and many of them will exceed 100,000 miles. I'm not aware of any Alusil bores from Honda. Back in the early 70"s with bikes like the Elsinores they did use chrome plated bores. They did that with many of the CR's of the early 80's too. I'd find it hard to believe if they didn't do some Alusil bores. I believe the cylinders we get from customers for repairs are indeed Nikasil.

@worntorn ALusil CBR600's 03 - 08 ?? I've never seen an 03 - 06 CBR600 (including euro and Japanese samples) that were anything but factory cast in, cast iron with no coating at all. Starting in 07 and through 08 blocks with the same casting numbers would arrive either with cast in, cast iron or a plated aluminum casting. (*think about that nightmare same factory casting #'s with two completely different products!). I can't honestly say the 07 - 08 plated bores were nikasil or Alusil. After 08 I've never seen anything but Nikasil plated CBR600's FWIW

@worntorn Not dissing you. You get it. Was just curious about the CBR thing.

Click to expand...

That came from some reading of a Honda CBR forum discussing bore wear.
The consensus was that the bores were Alusil 03-07 then Nikasil later.
As with any forum, I'm not sure the consensus was correct!
I am certain that the Triumph Daytonas I mentioned do use Nikasil, it's highlighted in the factory sales literature.


Glen