New electric start conversion

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I have a weight saving / minimalist fetish which is apposed to an electric start on an old motorcycle...

But Matt's set up looks so sexy it nearly makes me want one!
 
Fast Eddie said:
I have a weight saving / minimalist fetish which is apposed to an electric start on an old motorcycle...

But Matt's set up looks so sexy it nearly makes me want one!
Click to expand...

You might find your attitude changes with age. For some of us geezers with serious knee problems, it becomes a choice between riding an electric start Norton or not riding a Norton. Besides, you can still obsess about saving weight by trying to reduce the weight of the e-start bits. Drilled gears, titanium fasteners, room temperature superconductors, etc. Well, that last one might be a little over the top, but you get the idea.

Ken
 
lcrken said:
Fast Eddie said:
I have a weight saving / minimalist fetish which is apposed to an electric start on an old motorcycle...

But Matt's set up looks so sexy it nearly makes me want one!
Click to expand...

You might find your attitude changes with age. For some of us geezers with serious knee problems, it becomes a choice between riding an electric start Norton or not riding a Norton. Besides, you can still obsess about saving weight by trying to reduce the weight of the e-start bits. Drilled gears, titanium fasteners, room temperature superconductors, etc. Well, that last one might be a little over the top, but you get the idea.

Ken
Click to expand...

I'm well aware that an e start will be on the shopping list one day Ken. Jus trying to delay it...!
 
Beautiful metal cutting.
If the finished unit is that nice overall, I may have to run out a buy a pre-MK3 just to mount one. :lol:
 
Fast Eddie said:
I have a weight saving / minimalist fetish which is apposed to an electric start on an old motorcycle...

But Matt's set up looks so sexy it nearly makes me want one!
Click to expand...

Yes, no getting over it, this kit will add some weight. We are doing lots of things to keep weight off, as you will see with future updates. The belt drive will reduce some weight. The clutch basket will be aluminum, and of course the chain weight will be gone. The front sprocket for the belt drive will be S7 tool steel. We are using this because it will also be the external race for a Sprague. Yes we decided to use a Sprague. Even though the starter pinion is solenoid actuated, we do not want the gear train running all the time in the primary (this is a gear driven starter system, similar in design concept to a Mark III) The gears are cut and about a AGMA class 10 or 11. Cut gears run much noisier than ground gears, so I do not want that gear train noise to be heard while running the bike. Good thing is that if the Sprague ever fails, the gear rotation will not be transferred to the starter pinion, thus destroying the starter and the inner primary housing (like some Mark III failures have done) If a Sprague fails, you will hear the gear train operating, and that's it. All of the gears that operated the system are mounted via deep groove, sealed, ball bearings and will be able to handle a Sprague failure. Remember the starter system is a gear reduction from the starter to the crank. When a Sprague fails, this gear system becomes a multiplier and not a reduction. 4,000 RPM at the crank could become 40,000 RPM at the starter pinion if a Sprague was to fail. This multiplication factor was the cause of Mark III systems exploding when a Sprague failed. The starter would try to turn at 40,000 RPM and would come apart (understated term) from centrifugal forces at that speed

After the system is finished, we plan to weigh the parts and get an exact figure as to how much weight will be added.

Eddie: As a note, the kick started lever will still be left on the bike. So if no body is watching you can press the button. If there is a crowd around, you can still kick start it LOL
 
To add a little to Johns last post.

I personally was definitely premature in saying that our system would not be using a Sprag engagement when we first started talking about creating an electric start conversion. I was just fed up with dealing with the weak original unit in the MkIII and just wanted to get away from it altogether. However, after research is was determined that using a Sprag was in fact the best way to approach this. Having said that, there are certainly many different Sprag designs and qualities. The one we will be using is a sealed version that has no problem running in a dry primary over time. We will detail more specs for individual parts as we get closer to having all of them finished but the Sprag in question was calculated to handle 542 ft/lbs of torque. No question that gets us a bit of cushion

Talking to John at this time about the actual gears, materials used and specialty coatings makes me really excited about starting to put this kit together and installing it on some machines for testing.

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

www.coloradonortonworks.com
 
cNw said:
To add a little to Johns last post.

I personally was definitely premature in saying that our system would not be using a Sprag engagement when we first started talking about creating an electric start conversion. I was just fed up with dealing with the weak original unit in the MkIII and just wanted to get away from it altogether. However, after research is was determined that using a Sprag was in fact the best way to approach this. Having said that, there are certainly many different Sprag designs and qualities. The one we will be using is a sealed version that has no problem running in a dry primary over time. We will detail more specs for individual parts as we get closer to having all of them finished but the Sprag in question was calculated to handle 542 ft/lbs of torque. No question that gets us a bit of cushion

Talking to John at this time about the actual gears, materials used and specialty coatings makes me really excited about starting to put this kit together and installing it on some machines for testing.

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

http://www.coloradonortonworks.com
Click to expand...

Matt, what battery do you have in mind for your system?
 
Fast,

I have been using the Shorai Lithium battery on my MkIII builds for several years and really like the performance, size and weight. This being the 21 series battery.

So this is what I will recommend but there are many batteries that will work of course. Once we determine the exact draw on the starter, we will require a minimum size (cca) based on that

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

www.coloradonortonworks.com
 
cNw said:
Fast,

I have been using the Shorai Lithium battery on my MkIII builds for several years and really like the performance, size and weight. This being the 21 series battery.

So this is what I will recommend but there are many batteries that will work of course. Once we determine the exact draw on the starter, we will require a minimum size (cca) based on that

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

http://www.coloradonortonworks.com
Click to expand...

Sounds good Matt, I use a Shoria (from you), good to hear you plan on using it on this set up.

And that got me thinking... If your system ends up being as superb as all your other offerings, further weight saving could be had by using a race style gearbox, minus kickstart parts and even with a mag outer cover...!

Next question, do you think your kit would be up to the task of over sized and / or high comp motors?
 
Fast Eddie said:
cNw said:
Fast,

I have been using the Shorai Lithium battery on my MkIII builds for several years and really like the performance, size and weight. This being the 21 series battery.

So this is what I will recommend but there are many batteries that will work of course. Once we determine the exact draw on the starter, we will require a minimum size (cca) based on that

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

http://www.coloradonortonworks.com
Click to expand...

Sounds good Matt, I use a Shoria (from you), good to hear you plan on using it on this set up.

And that got me thinking... If your system ends up being as superb as all your other offerings, further weight saving could be had by using a race style gearbox, minus kickstart parts and even with a mag outer cover...!

Next question, do you think your kit would be up to the task of over sized and / or high comp motors?
Click to expand...

Fast,

Considering the gear reduction, the starter kit will be capable of turning over a high compression engine. cNw has been known to 'over build' many upgrades and mods to ensure that we have plenty of cushion for their intended use and this kit will fall into this category as well

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

www.coloradonortonworks.com
 
84ok said:
looking forward to the billet cover 8)
Click to expand...

84

I do not make the billet outer cover, but have purchased the cover for one of my restores. The quality is excellent, and the billet material polishes to a much brighter sheen than the cast material

We are using the billet outer cover as our model for "match-up" to the inner. There may be small mismatches of our inner to stock outer casting (as there are now between inner and outer cast OEM units) But, the new electric start billet inner will match perfectly (.001 to .003 inch max mismatch) to existing billet outer that CNW is currently offering
 
swooshdave said:
.003 in? How dare you! :wink:
Click to expand...

Well it will most likely be closer than that LOL. Our laser scanner has .0005 resolution. It produces a point cloud that we process through software to give us a native SolidWorks model. The accuracy of this model allows us to produce tool path for the CNC mills. So although the scanner has exceptional resolution, I leave some error factor for processing the raw data (point cloud), and the real world problems of converting the data (native CAD) to the machining process tool path (CAM surfacing)

Besides only a handful of people on this site knows the difference between a .001 and .003 inch variance, or have the metrology skills to measure such a deviation in a surfacing tool path.

My brain hurts now and I have used all the big words I know LOL
 
G81 Can Cycle said:
swooshdave said:
.003 in? How dare you! :wink:
Click to expand...

Well it will most likely be closer than that LOL. Our laser scanner has .0005 resolution. It produces a point cloud that we process through software to give us a native SolidWorks model. The accuracy of this model allows us to produce tool path for the CNC mills. So although the scanner has exceptional resolution, I leave some error factor for processing the raw data (point cloud), and the real world problems of converting the data (native CAD) to the machining process tool path (CAM surfacing)

Besides only a handful of people on this site knows the difference between a .001 and .003 inch variance, or have the metrology skills to measure such a deviation in a surfacing tool path.

My brain hurts now and I have used all the big words I know LOL
Click to expand...

YOUR brain hurts.......I have to take the rest of the day off in order to recover !!

Meanwhile I will do something I can actually understand....post another image of the starter loosely fitted to a stock Commando

As you can see the Black finish on the starter will somewhat make it go away visually. The chrome starter will make it nice a bright for some extra pop

For those running Amals, there will be a K&N filter kit available since the stock airbox has to be removed





Matt / Colorado Norton Works

www.coloradonortonworks.com
 

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