New electric starter kit?

EstuaryBoy said:

If it's competitively priced.... why not?

I would think that if you have a business selling parts for these bikes, you must be aware that your customer base will either be getting older and more feeble, or younger with more 'rider convenience' expectations. Seems logical as this will appeal to both and keep more bikes in use...
For some, price IS a big consideration...

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It is just a hair off of $4000 USD, plus you have to send him your transmission cradle and inner primary by the looks of it - IF that is even an option: you may need to send him the whole bike...

It definitely is not a "do it in your garage in an afternoon" type of kit, like the CNW or Alton products. While it is mechanically simple, the logistics detract from it in my mind....

This would be my prefered starter set up. The only problem I can see is the rear engine/gearbox plate is looking rather thin, & if the plates have been already opened up to accommodate a TTi gearbox there might not be a lot left.

Martyn.

Derek Wilson said:

It is just a hair off of $4000 USD, plus you have to send him your transmission cradle and inner primary by the looks of it - IF that is even an option: you may need to send him the whole bike...

It definitely is not a "do it in your garage in an afternoon" type of kit, like the CNW or Alton products. While it is mechanically simple, the logistics detract from it in my mind....

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Again, didn't realise we were discussing one particular offering only, though TBH the CCC option may be a bit far for most UK customers.....

EstuaryBoy said:

Again, didn't realise we were discussing one particular offering only.....

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I guess I must have misread - what other offering are you referring too? A potential unknown entrant?

Derek Wilson said:

I guess I must have misread - what other offering are you referring too? A potential unknown entrant?

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No specifics, I was just responding to Mexico Mikes post as to: 'Do we need another?', and the fact that both Norvil and RGM seem to have (or had) irons in this fire..
Makes sense that two of the UK's largest spares dealers should perhaps invest in making the bikes more amenable (or attractive) to current and future owners?

EstuaryBoy said:

No specifics, I was just responding to Mexico Mikes post as to: 'Do we need another?', and the fact that both Norvil and RGM seem to have (or had) irons in this fire..
Makes sense that two of the UK's largest spares dealers should perhaps invest in making the bikes more amenable (or attractive) to current and future owners?

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Too true - it does seem remiss that there is not a solution that the major UK spares organization have gravitated to.

I have heard from some dealers that the profit margins on the Alton are pretty thin, and CNW only sells direct, so unless Norvil/RGM/AN/etc. come up with there own, it would be hard to compete and still turn a profit. Even then, it would need to be a pretty lucrative and innovative product to displace the incumbents.

Business is business as they say.

Derek Wilson said:

Even then, it would need to be a pretty lucrative and innovative product to displace the incumbents.

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In the global market, yes, as then carriage, import duties and local taxes all add up.
But if there's a domestic (UK) market, those factors alone must put them at an advantage?...

gortnipper said:

There might be a price advantage of Stuart Garner started making one in China too. But I wouldn't buy that one either.

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Garner won't be making diddly-squat except brooms, in prison.

lcrken said:

There is this conversion from Custom Classic Cycles in Texas, which uses some parts sourced from the UK.

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It's an updated version of the starter originally developed by Bob Oswald at QPD, and later improved upon by Kenny Dreer, and finally by Fred at Old Brits.

The attached file gives more details on its history and design.

Ken

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CCC kit is priced at well over $3K, so why would anyone do that?

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Correction - almost $4K. ABSOLUTELY will be a very narrow market of their existing restoration clients i would think. That's a $1,500 premium over a CNW kit, and needs serious tear-down and modification to install.

As it happens, it is virtually IDENTICAL to the one on my green bike that Tom Reid did for me (he did the last of the VR880s for Kenny, too).

I do like this basic design that does away with a sprag clutch. I have the conventical clutch basket ring gear start motor set up on both my triples, and they are very robust, much more so than any sprag starter that I have ever owned.

Leonc said:

I do like this basic design that does away with a sprag clutch. I have the conventical clutch basket ring gear start motor set up on both my triples, and they are very robust, much more so than any sprag starter that I have ever owned.

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There were some reliability issues with the first iteration of this design by Bob Oswald, as well as the first ones by Kenny Dreer, related to keeping the correct relationship between the starter gear and the ring gear. But they seem to have sorted that out eventually, so I expect that the later ones by Old Britts and now CCC shouldn't have that problem.

Ken

lcrken said:

There were some reliability issues with the first iteration of this design by Bob Oswald, as well as the first ones by Kenny Dreer, related to keeping the correct relationship between the starter gear and the ring gear. But they seem to have sorted that out eventually, so I expect that the later ones by Old Brits and now CCC shouldn't have that problem.

Ken

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The problems (according to Kenny) had to do with Norton / Andover manufacturing variations and imperfections in concentricity, multiplied by other-than-perfectly true mainshafts. Truing the ring gears to the chainwheels was a crapshoot; hence, belt drives which were less fussy but still dependent on good mainshaft accuracy.

As I recall, the original Bob Oswald design did not include an outrigger bearing for the transmission mainshaft, which allowed it to flex, with the resultant poor concentricity and alignment of the ring gear. I don't know if Kenny's last version included the outrigger bearing, but I do know that Fred at Old Britts added one to his design. The CCC system also has the outrigger bearing.

Ken

I may be reading the CCC information incorrectly, but my understanding is that it doesn't come with the outrigger bearing:
" Fred Eaton of Old Britts further developed it by incorporating an outrigger bearing on the transmission main-shaft. This outrigger was a “must do” for racers as otherwise with the extra hp and racing loads the AMC transmission mainshaft would significantly flex. This momentarily misaligns the gears causing eventual self-destruction. If you’re going racing or ride your bike super aggressive then an outrigger bearing is probably a good idea. On the other hand, CCC has taken Bob’s design with Kenny/Fred’s idler and developed a super sturdy starter mounting bracket along with a flame-hardened and annealed ring gear to provide a happy medium – reliability, superb looks, and reasonable cost."
From the above it sounds as though they have done without the outrigger bearing.
My own view is of all the systems I think the Old Britts offered the most advantages, with of course the one time disadvantage of the time required to fit it.

I have to say, that shortened Ham Can looks
AWESOME!!!!!!!

MichaelB said:

I have to say, that shortened Ham Can looks
AWESOME!!!!!!!

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That shortened ham can does look good but it would not fit with a CNW starter. I just took a few photos of my CNW install with a shortened ham can we made in NZ. You can see the top of the CNW starter is only just lower than the drain plugs on the carbs which looks substantially higher than the electric start being discussed in this thread.

The shorter version we made clears the CNW starter by approx 4 mm.

maylar said:

Indeed - how do I get one?

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No it wouldn't fit. See my photos in a post on this thread.

I can see this kit is a lot more work and a lot more money than the alternative. But I don’t see any advantages as a result…?

To ME, one of the most distinctive visuals about the Commando is the ham can air filter. I don't want any component that requires removal of the filter. I also prefer a kit that tends to "fade" into the bike's normal appearance. For that reason, the Alton remains the E-start I would select for my Commando, even though I absolutely consider the CNW starter to be a more robust system. OTOH, as I have often pointed out, the Alton has operated without any issues at all for almost 9 years now.

Obviously,the ham can is all about personal taste and many folks remove the ham can and install some other sort of filter anyway so what is a big item to me is a total non-issue to them.

The small ham can might be lacking in airflow for the engine; why would Norton have used the OEM-sized ham can if they could have used a smaller one? A smaller one would have been less expensive and made it easier to change the filter. The actual "intake area" of the HC filter is not nearly as large as it appears to be. By eyeballing, the "holes" in the screen comprise around 1/2 of the total area of the screen. IOW, if the total screen area is, say, 40 sq in (I'm totally using that as a guess/example, I have no idea of the actual measurement), The "opening" (holes) is probably around 20 sq in - again that's an eyeball guess, not a measurement of the hole size x number of holes. My point is that the HC filter has a much lower air flow capability than it may appear to have. Of course, only a dyno could tell if it matters...

I'm a few months behind as I just read the September posts on my e-start conversion so here's my responses. Without a doubt it's a conversion not a kit. It took 2 years of testing and breaking stuff mainly belts to make it reliable. Because of manufacturing variances in mainshaft relative to trans mounts the Bendix/bracket required manual positioning and cradle tapping. A slotted bracket and some other improvements would allow the cradle to be pre-tapped. Since cradle rebuilds are part of a restoration that would be a great time for this conversion. Anyway I did 6 conversions for friends (2 for Phil Dansby) and decided I could not compete with true bolt-ons when Alton and CNW came along a few years later. Any similarities with Tom Reid's VR-880 work is because Tom provided me with the cradle machine work, ring gear (improved VR-880) and it's fitment to the clutch basket. His work is impeccable. Fred Eaton improved KD's idler by adding big wide slotted shims to set belt tension so I used this approach. If enough interest I can provide photos and drawings to make the baby ham can. It uses a K&N filter so flows just fine and is 3/8" narrower so the carb gaiters are relaxed. Because of a crowded market I have no idea if this electric start conversion will be marketed.