New electric start conversion

Jeandr · Jan 12, 2015

bill said:
I am in the bendix camp. sprag's belong in an oil bath or better yet pressure lube environment. the norton with a dry primary belt drive is NOT the place for a sprag.

There are many many shops all over the world replacing bendix type starter motors, sometimes they even have to replace a ring gear because it got chewed out by the starter... parts do wear out when they are used.

I am 66 and not getting any younger, last year in Florida, I had a heart scare, one day in the hospital, to make a long story short, I want a starter on my Norton, it is on my shelf right now and waiting for me to find the time to put it in. Waiting a year for something that has only been announced is not an option. Everything takes way more time than we plan for, that is one of the first laws of the universe and as far as I know, only God did everything in less than a week :wink:

Jean

madass140 · Jan 12, 2015

I just ordered a Alton, I would of liked to run a dry belt but the dry sprag is a concern so I will use a 32mm RGM belt drive and run oil, no problem. Had Matt had one up and running now then of course me and everyone else would of
considered his version, but I wanted one now for a new build and Alton is the best option as of now.
I will be very interested to see what Matt ends up with. I'm sure it will be a good product and I wish him all the best.
It does take a long time to get from having an idea to being able to have the product available to the public.
some of my products take 1 year to get out there but persistence pays off.

kerinorton · Jan 12, 2015

Please don't refer to a modern starter motor as a Bendix starter. It is not.

The modern starter is a pre-engagement job that often has a built in reduction as well. As mentioned above, the old and out of date Bendix design feked ring gears.
A pre engagement starter has a solenoid which throws the drive pinion into mesh before powering up the armature. Ring gears on modern cars last forever, [ unless some mean bastard doesn't replace his battery when its stuffed ]
The Bendix spins the armature and causes the pinion to slide down a very course thread to mesh with the ring gear. Its spinning at a great rate of knots when the pinion hits the ring gear and this thrashes the shit out of the teeth.
The problem to overcome with a Commando is that it doesn't have a beg flywheel/ring-gear, so extra reduction gears have to be used to make it work. As Matt says, modern bikes are designed from the get go for their starters. We are improvising with the Norton.

look up Bendix drive on Wikipedia . Its named after is inventor. Mr Crapper invented the flushing toilet I think, that why we "go for a crap". Don't know what we would call the action of a Bendix but we could use the term Bendix it when referring to the 'Cowboy' work some of us have found on our new Purchases [ we use other terminology here but it wouldn't be kosher to mention it. I suppose cowboy comes into the same area but I am at a loss for words ] .
Dereck

Fullauto · Jan 12, 2015

CNW said:
Great to see the conversation on this, as there is always different experiences and feedback to consider.

As far as the Sprag, I am sure it will work well in some modern machines. What you have to consider is that most of these were designed based on certain parts that the manufacturer knew they would want to use. In other words, starting from scratch (no pun intended) is a whole lot easier than when having to work with preexisting designs and parts.

We will take an approach that will work well with being incorporated to the Commando primary and the parts that will be retained in there. It will and can be argued to no end what design will work the best as there are a few to look at. At some point you have to make a decision though or else you can never move forward with the development

Our design will be simple and strong. This translates to reliability and less chance of issues down the road.

If for any reason the system isn't operating properly, you know that cNw will take care of it. I am not going anywhere for a long time and have always stood behind my product 100%. This much past other manufactures usual 'warranty periods'. I frankly don't care about having set miles/time for product to be under warranty but rather look at each case and determine what needs to be done to have a happy customer. I am not going to claim that there wont ever be an issue but I can promise full support after the sale.

Pricing is tricky. Take the approach to make a system inexpensive and you often have to cut corners and that is really no acceptable for something like this. Not to set any limits can easily put it out of reach for most to consider.

So is a balance of making sure we have the best possible system that will work as intended, but that also uses parts that we know will hold up over time.

The R&D for much of this will never be recovered. When setting out to create something like this in a niche market, its driven by passion for the machine and it doesn't always make perfect business sense. However, if the kit is made properly, then we know it will stand the test of time and with units sold, it will certainly ensure a steady production and availability for years to come.

Look at what Jim Comstock has done for this market. Its nothing short of amazing. If he would have always thought about the financial end of it to make sure the R&D would get recovered, then we would not see half of the product he has made available over the years. We have to be grateful that he sometimes just takes the approach to want to create something...regardless of what it takes to get there.

So we move forward and I am sure we will have some set backs. We'll get past those and end up with something that you can count of will work and also look right on your Commando

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

http://www.coloradonortonworks.com

I'm with you 100% Matt. I'm wrestling with my alloy barrels for Commandos as we speak. I've spent countless hours agonizing over how they are going to be and I'll have spent a bundle of cash to finally get to the point of manufacture. They are going to be expensive, but they are going to be a killer product. You will have them on all your builds. Guaranteed.

cNw · Jan 12, 2015

Ken,

You certainly know first hand what it takes to bring something new to market. You took on something really big with your new FA head but because of your 'can do' attitude you made it happen. I for one think is pretty amazing what you have done.

Now you are at it with a new barrel. I can not wait to see it in person.

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

www.coloradonortonworks.com

motorson · Jan 12, 2015

I would like to see a starter that spins right on the crankshaft and becomes the alternator after the engine starts. No gears, no Bendix and no sprag. "Switched Reluctance" is about the only chance of this being possible. Lots of torque down low and a very efficient brushless generator once it is being spun by the engine.
http://www.johnwmorehead.com/hevt-switc ... ification/

https://www.cst.com/Applications/Articl ... ance-Motor

http://www.infolytica.com/en/applicatio ... %20SRM.mp4

IF enough power density can be achieved on a 12 volt system then the associated electronics would double as a very accurate electronic ignition triggering device as well as a high output generator. The question of "enough power density" is because of the power needed to start a Norton engine.

From what I have read on these little babies they are impervious to RPMs and could actually pull power out of the battery at highway speed to give a bit more umph with the mere touch of a button.
Dan.

kommando · Jan 13, 2015

Simplest solution is a pre engagement starter engaging with a ring gear on the back of the clutch body as per T160, downside is the gearbox cradle needs a chunk taken out of the top for clearance for the starter body, upside is solution is based on modern auto methods so no ring gear munching or sprag.

Alton Sales · Jan 13, 2015

andychain said:
Weird this but after 2-3 years Alton have just e-mailed for prices !!!!!!!!!!!

Andy.... if someone saying they were Alton asked you for prices, it wasn't us. All our chains are Tsubaki genuine parts bought through our dealer in France.

andychain · Jan 13, 2015

Do you have a competitor ?

They have been sent to France already, have any of your staff left ?

The Tsubaki product is OK but is it big pin 4.42 ?

No problems for as I sell many 52 link big pin iwis cam chains for Altons.

Best wishes and I hope the tragic events of the last week have not caused
you many problems.

Andy

kerinorton · Jan 13, 2015

motorson said:
I would like to see a starter that spins right on the crankshaft and becomes the alternator after the engine starts. No gears, no Bendix and no sprag. "Switched Reluctance" is about the only chance of this being possible. Lots of torque down low and a very efficient brushless generator once it is being spun by the engine.

I remember my Suzuki 150 twin from about 1966 had one of those. Excellent.
My 1922 Dodge also has a starter dynamo.

whale oil beef hooked

Dereck

I' d hate to see how big a lump would end up on the end of the crankshaft. Might as well buy a Honda 4

grayluders · Feb 28, 2015

tomspro said:
Great news Matt!
Made in the USA is always good, and with CNWs reputation, I am certain to be a future customer for this.
Don't forget us belt drive owners!

Would also advocate for ability to use double gear box adjusters and incorporate a gearbox outrigger a la Old Britts design.
Think this might be possible Matt if you CNC a new inner primary?
Also believe there are a lot of us out there needing 200+ watt charging . . .
Re: price - guessing that the less ancillary disassembly and machining needed (cradles), the easier it is for us great unwashed to rationalize ourselves to whatever the price tag?

George in Vermont

mike996 · Feb 28, 2015

I'm sure anything CNW develops will be top quality and well-supported. IMO, as has been noted, the price will be the critical issue. I purchased the Alton a couple of years ago and am extremely pleased with it (and their customer support) but I'd call the Alton price pretty much the absolute limit of what I would have considered to spend for an e-start. Also, minimal change to the actual bike/engine is vital. The Old Britts system, for example, requires way too much serious mod of the bike to have ever been workable for me. It sounds like CNW is pursuing a similar concept to the Alton - minimal actual mods and easily returnable to stock, if desired, so that's really good. Even Norton folks don't really notice the Alton without a "second look."

I haven't personally seen any need for a larger alternator, I went from a Lucas 180W "down" to the Alton's 150 with no apparent adverse affect, but I readily agree that more output would be a good thing, especially for folks running additional accessories.

Even though I have no interest in the CNW e-starter as a potential purchase, I'm very interested in the project and how it ends up price and target-date wise. As far as sprag/other type of engagement…as noted by others, sprags are used everywhere with no issues at all. As long as they are properly matched to the load/function (which the oem '75 was not) they have a very long life. I will say that IMO a sprag in a non-lubricated system, like a belt drive, sounds problematic but I'm sure there are sealed units that will do the job.

grandpaul · Feb 28, 2015

motorson said:
I would like to see a starter that spins right on the crankshaft and becomes the alternator after the engine starts.

Yamaha had reasonably effective ones on thier dirt bikes in the 70s. Certainly a modern variant could be made to spin a Norton, although it may take a relatively large battery (not that big of a problem, no pun intended)

swooshdave · Feb 28, 2015

grandpaul said:
motorson said:

I would like to see a starter that spins right on the crankshaft and becomes the alternator after the engine starts.

Click to expand...

Yamaha had reasonably effective ones on thier dirt bikes in the 70s. Certainly a modern variant could be made to spin a Norton, although it may take a relatively large battery (not that big of a problem, no pun intended)

But with the Lithium Iron batteries you don't need a physically large battery.

motorson · Feb 28, 2015

It is true that starters have gotten smaller and the batteries have become lighter and smaller and more powerful. The fact remains that starters are a problematic system on any internal combustion engine. My suggestion, that the starter and alternator be the same piece of metal spinning on a shaft with no clutch or gearing would eliminate a big chunk of the problems. It may introduce others though. :? And, it remains to be seen if new "switched reluctance" motor technology can be built with the low RPM power density to turn an engine over from zero RPM. One thing is very true, you'd have an incredible electrical source once the engine started!
Dan.

nickguzzi · Mar 1, 2015

Peugeot-Citroen had a reversible starter and alternator doing the rounds a few years ago. It was supposed to facilitate engine off waiting and then instant restarts which was being proposed as an anti pollution & fuel efficiency measure. I think that may have been legislated in some places in Europe, Switzerland maybe? I think in Germany, if you have are waiting more than "x"minutes, you are supposed to kill the engine.
The proposed one I saw was built into the flywheel, reducing the overall mass as the starter/alternator mass took its place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJSEQaxAh4c

The utube clip shows a couple of systems. The first looks promising for what people on here are talking about, and they do say it is already in the aftermarket. If the size can be kept compact enough, maybe it would fit a la mk3?

lcrken · Mar 1, 2015

One of the keys to having a combination starter/alternator that works efficiently and is a reasonable size is going to a higher operating voltage. Going to a 48 volt system lets you get the same power with less current, which allows use of smaller wire sizes, which results in smaller and lighter motors and alternators. Might be more difficult to do on a bike than a car, unless someone comes up with suitable batteries. Interesting possibilities, however.

Ken

gtsun · Jun 16, 2015

A friend who is not a forum member ask me how the CNW E-Start was going.. Any updates Matt???

Snorton74 · Jun 17, 2015

gtsun said:
A friend who is not a forum member ask me how the CNW E-Start was going.. Any updates Matt???

Don't tell me about the labor pains, just show me the baby, lol.

Old Scratcher · Jun 18, 2015

I'm VERY interested. Especially if you can smash the Alton price. When do you think you'll get the bugs sorted & start taking orders? I'd like to be high on that list, if the price is right (& our Aussie Dollar hasn't tanked any further). So make sure you tell us when you're ready to trade, as I'm sure you'll recover much of your R&D costs from just here. & if it's up to your usual standards, I'm sure you'll sell truck loads of them for many years to come. I may even get two & put one on my Stock Bike. I know it wouldn't be stock any more, but I think it's an upgrade worth sacrificing for, & I could always stick the old Primary Case on, if I was entering into any shows.

New electric start conversion

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