New electric start conversion

Ashman brings up some good concerns, the cost and not knowing how long it might last before more money has to be spent.


Including the cost of the new more powerful battery my complete Alton Estart was about $2650.

For me after two spine surgeries buying my Alton has kept me able to ride my Commando.

Ashman, I don't know what can go wrong or break in the years ahead that would cost much money at all to replace, do you?

There is not too much to this, new inner primary cover - can't see what can fail there, new better and higher output alternator,
starter unit, chain, etc

You express concern that because we can't predict the future of something that can go wrong 15 or 20 years from now that that is a reason to maybe not buy it now, if I am reading you right......I would not have bought my Camry Hybrid because it has not been in production in its present form for 20 years....I guess one makes informed decisions and there is always an amount of trust involved?

Anyway, I have had it installed since August now and with well over 100 instant and trouble free starts I am very pleased with it.

1up3down said:

Ashman brings up some good concerns, the cost and not knowing how long it might last before more money has to be spent.


Including the cost of the new more powerful battery my complete Alton Estart was about $2650.

For me after two spine surgeries buying my Alton has kept me able to ride my Commando.

Ashman, I don't know what can go wrong or break in the years ahead that would cost much money at all to replace, do you?

There is not too much to this, new inner primary cover - can't see what can fail there, new better and higher output alternator,
starter unit, chain, etc

You express concern that because we can't predict the future of something that can go wrong 15 or 20 years from now that that is a reason to maybe not buy it now, if I am reading you right......I would not have bought my Camry Hybrid because it has not been in production in its present form for 20 years....I guess one makes informed decisions and there is always an amount of trust involved?

Anyway, I have had it installed since August now and with well over 100 instant and trouble free starts I am very pleased with it.

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I can understand that and I have brought a lot of things that have upgraded our Nortons over the last 5 years, but I have never spent that much money on just one thing, we all won't know what the next few years will bring, i love to have the money to spend on all of the goodies on offer, having a back problem and its a good way of keep ridding and I would proberly do the same, I love the elec starter on my Thruxton but having no kick start for back up is a worry but then can always clutch start it if needed, but while I am able to still kick my Norton over I will problerly spend it on some other thing, my Norton is always a one kick start and very reliable and has been for 39 years of my ownership, things do wear out or break over time its what we expect, I have been keeping a good eye on these new starters as one day I may need to put one on, I do hope to be around till 105 or more and I will be still ridding :roll:

Ashley

Jeandr said:

kerinorton said:

Just think. If the spragg seizes up, what is going to happen. If a spragg seizes up in an auto transmission, at least you will have direct drive, and still be drivable.

Most starters probably have a 10;1 REDUCTION. They will flick out of mesh when an engine fires at say 300-400 rpm. [ that's 3000 plus rpm on the starter armature. how fast would the starter turn when you revs the commando to 3000 rpm like we do after the first start. if the spragg seizes, 30,000 rpm on a starter armature would make it explode I would think ]


Hence my dislike of the spragg idea.

Dereck

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As I said, about 90% of the world's motorcycles have sprags, it isn't a problem for them, why would it be for a Norton? A Kawasaki 1400cc making over 200HP has a sprag, it's starter also has a good reduction ratio from the starter motor to the engine, they rev to 10,000 RPM or more and their sprags endure that without a complaint, tell me why it wouldn't work for a Norton engine? You may not "like" sprags, it doesn't mean they don't work!

Jean

Jean

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Sprags are quite problematic on the MK3 Nortons.
They also give a fair bit of trouble on modern machines. When the sprag goes on a T595 Triumph, you might as well chuck the engine out. Most just find a replacement engine.
The newer Triumphs are designed so that the sprag is easier to get to, but it is still a weak point. The operators manual for the Daytona 955i warns that running the starter with lower than peak voltage may destroy the sprag. This won't happen with a Bendix.

When the sprag breaks on a Norton Commando MK3 it can jam up the works and leave you stranded roadside. Mine did.
Most automotive starters use a Bendix engagement and it is very reliable.

Glen

nortonspeed said:

B.Rad said:

Are there currently alternatives to Alton and the beefed up Heavy Duty thing for factory starter motors.

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http://www.oldbritts.com/starter.html

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WOW! $3000.00 just to push the button. If you have to use an electric stater, get a MK111 with one of the starters provided by : http://atlanticgreen.com/starter.htm

All I can say here is consider it. From the Torontonian with his kicker leg up on the computer desk after 9 weeks. :|

You'll pay way more than $3grand for an MK3 that needs more than just its poorly designed starter replaced and you'll have the added bonus of having to shift on the wrong side of the bike.

+1

Snorton74 said:

You'll pay way more than $3grand for an MK3 that needs more than just its poorly designed starter replaced and you'll have the added bonus of having to shift on the wrong side of the bike.

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True, you will pay more than $3000.00 for a MK111, but, if you can't kick start an earlier Commando anymore, sell it and put that, and the 3K toward a proven system, for that money you will be able to find really good e-start. I have been using mine for over 60k miles, I wore out one sprage clutch, easily replaced.
Shifting? I switch from my '68 to the '75 and others, all the time, with no problem. ( not right now, 17 effing degrees out!)
It will be very interesting to see what Matt at CNW develops.

commando6868 said:

Snorton74 said:

You'll pay way more than $3grand for an MK3 that needs more than just its poorly designed starter replaced and you'll have the added bonus of having to shift on the wrong side of the bike.

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True, you will pay more than $3000.00 for a MK111, but, if you can't kick start an earlier Commando anymore, sell it and put that, and the 3K toward a proven system, for that money you will be able to find really good e-start. I have been using mine for over 60k miles, I wore out one sprage clutch, easily replaced.
Shifting? I switch from my '68 to the '75 and others, all the time, with no problem. ( not right now, 17 effing degrees out!)
It will be very interesting to see what Matt at CNW develops.

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check this one out, a really good deal: http://tulsa.craigslist.org/mcy/4840204857.html

commando6868 said:

commando6868 said:

Snorton74 said:

You'll pay way more than $3grand for an MK3 that needs more than just its poorly designed starter replaced and you'll have the added bonus of having to shift on the wrong side of the bike.

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True, you will pay more than $3000.00 for a MK111, but, if you can't kick start an earlier Commando anymore, sell it and put that, and the 3K toward a proven system, for that money you will be able to find really good e-start. I have been using mine for over 60k miles, I wore out one sprage clutch, easily replaced.
Shifting? I switch from my '68 to the '75 and others, all the time, with no problem. ( not right now, 17 effing degrees out!)
It will be very interesting to see what Matt at CNW develops.

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check this one out, a really good deal: http://tulsa.craigslist.org/mcy/4840204857.html

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By the time you fix everything on your 'new' MK3 you could have installed a conversion kit on your properly sorted bike for less money. For some old timers who've had their bikes forever this is probably a better option.

Great to see the conversation on this, as there is always different experiences and feedback to consider.

As far as the Sprag, I am sure it will work well in some modern machines. What you have to consider is that most of these were designed based on certain parts that the manufacturer knew they would want to use. In other words, starting from scratch (no pun intended) is a whole lot easier than when having to work with preexisting designs and parts.

We will take an approach that will work well with being incorporated to the Commando primary and the parts that will be retained in there. It will and can be argued to no end what design will work the best as there are a few to look at. At some point you have to make a decision though or else you can never move forward with the development

Our design will be simple and strong. This translates to reliability and less chance of issues down the road.

If for any reason the system isn't operating properly, you know that cNw will take care of it. I am not going anywhere for a long time and have always stood behind my product 100%. This much past other manufactures usual 'warranty periods'. I frankly don't care about having set miles/time for product to be under warranty but rather look at each case and determine what needs to be done to have a happy customer. I am not going to claim that there wont ever be an issue but I can promise full support after the sale.

Pricing is tricky. Take the approach to make a system inexpensive and you often have to cut corners and that is really no acceptable for something like this. Not to set any limits can easily put it out of reach for most to consider.

So is a balance of making sure we have the best possible system that will work as intended, but that also uses parts that we know will hold up over time.

The R&D for much of this will never be recovered. When setting out to create something like this in a niche market, its driven by passion for the machine and it doesn't always make perfect business sense. However, if the kit is made properly, then we know it will stand the test of time and with units sold, it will certainly ensure a steady production and availability for years to come.

Look at what Jim Comstock has done for this market. Its nothing short of amazing. If he would have always thought about the financial end of it to make sure the R&D would get recovered, then we would not see half of the product he has made available over the years. We have to be grateful that he sometimes just takes the approach to want to create something...regardless of what it takes to get there.

So we move forward and I am sure we will have some set backs. We'll get past those and end up with something that you can count of will work and also look right on your Commando

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

http://www.coloradonortonworks.com

Re the MK3:
There are something like 150 large and small improvements come with the MK3, and that is vs the MK11 850, which already has many improvements over the earlier bikes.
Aside from the starter, with the MK3 version you get stronger crankcases and crankshaft , vernier isos, a nice rear disc brake, strengthened frame, strenthened and sealed swing arm plus a lot of the other improvements.

Yes you will pay more than 3,000 for a complete running MK3, but if you put the MK3 beside a $3,000 starter motor, I think you will see that one is a complete motorcycle and the other is a little thing that goes "whirrrrr" when you hook a battery to it, very hard to ride the starter anywhere! :mrgreen:

Glen

commando6868 said:

nortonspeed said:

B.Rad said:

Are there currently alternatives to Alton and the beefed up Heavy Duty thing for factory starter motors.

Click to expand...

WOW! $3000.00 just to push the button. If you have to use an electric stater, get a MK111 with one of the starters provided by : http://atlanticgreen.com/starter.htm

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If you want to retain the original look of the MkIII starter on your machine, this is really the best option http://coloradonortonworks.com/part-cat ... /#post-215

I have sold a whole lot of these and they really work

Brand new, 4 brush starter that will turn your engine over with no problems. Plenty powerful and it looks right as well. I am working on a Black body on the next batch of starters so this will be another option for those that do not like the idea of a Chrome starter.

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

http://www.coloradonortonworks.com

It all comes down to applying bits of logic here and there, but not too much or we wouldn't ride these old bikes and the industry of rebuilding them would die.
I completely understand those who will spend 3k to add an electric starter to their beloved old Norton. If it is your favourite machine and this allows you to continue riding it, then the $ logic doesn't enter into it.
So it seems a suspension of $ logic is needed from both the customer and the vendor who develops these items, otherwise it never happens.

Glen

worntorn said:

Re the MK3:
There are something like 150 large and small improvements come with the MK3, and that is vs the MK11 850, which already has many improvements over the earlier bikes.
Aside from the starter, with the MK3 version you get stronger crankcases and crankshaft , vernier isos, a nice rear disc brake, strengthened frame, strenthened and sealed swing arm plus a lot of the other improvements.

Yes you will pay more than 3,000 for a complete running MK3, but if you put the MK3 beside a $3,000 starter motor, I think you will see that one is a complete motorcycle and the other is a little thing that goes "whirrrrr" when you hook a battery to it, very hard to ride the starter anywhere! :mrgreen:

Glen

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Glen,

Buying a different motorcycle to get the electric start is not an option for many. People have years of ownership with their machines. They have done upgrades and improvements in many cases. Personalized the bike just to fit them. Cosmetic improvements that rarely gets recovered in a sale. Some have owned their bikes for a very long time. I have many customers that bought their bike new.

They want their bike. If there is an option to install and electric start so they can enjoy their machine more, then this makes a whole lot more sense then buying a different bike and starting from scratch

Kind of like needing a garage at your house. Easier to add one on than buying a whole new house, even if the new house has some other improvements

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

http://www.coloradonortonworks.com

Matt, I'm looking forward to your electric start conversion. I've got a 74 Roadster that I bought new and I'm not getting any younger! My hips will thank you! Mike.

I understand Matt, and am also guilty of suspending $ logic for long periods of time (1360 Vincent engine). The rationalization that a starter motor is a better buy than a complete motorcycle with a starter motor made me smile a bit, however I have made similar rationalizations along the way.

As one hotrodder friend put it, "My greatest fear is that I will die and my wife will sell all of my car parts for the price I told her I paid for them" :mrgreen:

Glen

As one hotrodder friend put it, "My greatest fear is that I will die and my wife will sell all of my car parts for the price I told her I paid for them" :mrgreen:

Glen[/quote]

That's good! Had me looking in the mirror.

worntorn said:

I understand Matt, and am also guilty of suspending $ logic for long periods of time (1360 Vincent engine). The rationalization that a starter motor is a better buy than a complete motorcycle with a starter motor made me smile a bit, however I have made similar rationalizations along the way.

As one hotrodder friend put it, "My greatest fear is that I will die and my wife will sell all of my car parts for the price I told her I paid for them" :mrgreen:

Glen

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Glen,

I like the idea that the modifications that have become available over the years gives us choices. It doesnt really have to all make sense. Few of us would be riding these machines if it came down to that and many of the things we enjoy in life certainly dont make sense

That quote is the best I have seen in a long time.

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

www.coloradonortonworks.com

I am in the bendix camp. sprag's belong in an oil bath or better yet pressure lube environment. the norton with a dry primary belt drive is NOT the place for a sprag.

Jeandr said:

CNW said:

worntorn said:

Matt, will it utilize a Sprag or a Bendix type drive?
Bendix type would be ideal and would give you a strong selling point.

Glen

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I would prefer to make this all work without a sprag as I consider that a weak link. As mentioned, we will look into a few different set ups. The most important thing is that it will be reliable and perform as intended

We just recently talked about a Bendix and considering the experience STS has with that type of design, its very possible this will be the way we go.

http://www.coloradonortonworks.com

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Aren't sprags used in practicaly ALL Japanese motorcycles? Hinkley Triumphs use sprags too, even the new BMW flat twins use sprags, how do you see that as a weak point?

Jean

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