New electric start conversion

Mark said:

Pretty neat gears, do they make much noise?
nice work!

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The gears, as designed, will only rotate during starting operations. The gears are AGMA Class 9 gears (or commonly called "cut gears" in the industry) Cut gears are noisy. All the gears in the AMC gearbox are cut gears. Cut gears on a motorcycle are not usually a problem because of other noise factors (engine, exhaust, and wind noise drown out any gear noise) I am not sure if any of the higher end new bikes use ground gears (ground gears are normally AGMA class 11 or higher) maybe BMW, because the Germans are leaders in the gear industry, and are perfectionists about gear quality

Ground gears have much tighter tolerances on the key factors in gear noise and friction losses ( those main factors being" involute profile, indexing, and lead) As the name implies, the gear teeth are ground after heat treat. Most automotive application for gears in modern cars and trucks are ground gears. They are used in the push to have a more quite cabin noise background.

We recently made a planetary gear set where the input shaft was turning at 20,000 RPM. We had class 9 gears in the assembly. It was so loud that it violated OSHA noise standards to run the assembly. We purchased higher end hobs and shaper cutters to produce class 11 cut gears. the difference in noise level brought the assembly into OSHA standards to operate without ear protection. So class of gear makes a big difference in noise level

One of the nice features that Matt has mentioned (at least I think it is nice) is the pinion on the starter disengages after starting. So if your Sprague ever fails, all you will hear is a loud gear noise, this will tell you the Sprague has failed, without catastrophic damage to the bike

John

cNw said:

...Inside the large gear that is on the crank shaft there is a sprag. This sprag has a sealed bearing on each side of it so its completely shielded from the elements...

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Thanks for clarifying, sounds familiar now, my selective memory at play again.

maybe you need to be making replacement gears for the transmission also. the OE gears are a well known issue with the gear tooth face spalling and tooth breakage. :shock:

G81 Can Cycle said:

Ground gears have much tighter tolerances on the key factors in gear noise and friction losses ( those main factors being" involute profile, indexing, and lead) As the name implies, the gear teeth are ground after heat treat. Most automotive application for gears in modern cars and trucks are ground gears. They are used in the push to have a more quite cabin noise background.

We recently made a planetary gear set where the input shaft was turning at 20,000 RPM. We had class 9 gears in the assembly. It was so loud that it violated OSHA noise standards to run the assembly. We purchased higher end hobs and shaper cutters to produce class 11 cut gears. the difference in noise level brought the assembly into OSHA standards to operate without ear protection. So class of gear makes a big difference in noise level



John

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bill said:

maybe you need to be making replacement gears for the transmission also. the OE gears are a well known issue with the gear tooth face spalling and tooth breakage. :shock:

G81 Can Cycle said:

Ground gears have much tighter tolerances on the key factors in gear noise and friction losses ( those main factors being" involute profile, indexing, and lead) As the name implies, the gear teeth are ground after heat treat. Most automotive application for gears in modern cars and trucks are ground gears. They are used in the push to have a more quite cabin noise background.

We recently made a planetary gear set where the input shaft was turning at 20,000 RPM. We had class 9 gears in the assembly. It was so loud that it violated OSHA noise standards to run the assembly. We purchased higher end hobs and shaper cutters to produce class 11 cut gears. the difference in noise level brought the assembly into OSHA standards to operate without ear protection. So class of gear makes a big difference in noise level



John

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Bill

In the works CNW will have full gear sets (gears and shafts) for the AMC box in the first quarter of 2016 We are tooling for it now. We have some slight changes to make them better

I didn't know about the sprag either.
assuming that they spun with the crank was what got me to thinking about the noise that could make.
It looks like a well designed setup, I hope that you sell a bunch of them.

In the works CNW will have full gear sets (gears and shafts) for the AMC box in the first quarter of 2016 We are tooling for it now. We have some slight changes to make them better[/quote]

John,

That's great news.I was about one week away from opening up my gear box but I think I will wait and see what you guys come up with. Don't forget the 850 guys with the different 2nd gear combo, although I am considering going with a 21 tooth sprocket and the older 2nd gear combo. If you are redoing the sleeve gear maybe incorporate some kind of spiral in the bush(s) in order to get a little more oil on the shaft and possibly a seal on the outboard end to keep the oil in.

Pete

Help me out here; trying to envision the complete setup; does the belt then pass between the two gears on the second jack shaft below the starter?

I'm sure my knee only has so many more starts left in it before purchasing one of these.

Nathan

Nater_Potater said:

Help me out here; trying to envision the complete setup; does the belt then pass between the two gears on the second jack shaft below the starter?

I'm sure my knee only has so many more starts left in it before purchasing one of these.

Nathan

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Nate,
My guess would be the belt rides on the crankshaft between the gears and inner primary case and clears the shaft for the starter gear

Pete

you might want to look at a summerfield box if you can. I know it is a six speed but it might give you some ideas. they use needle rollers in the sleeve gear and others instead of bushings, they also incorporate a seal for the main shaft to sleeve gear. you might also already know this but the highest wear gears sets I see is 1st main, second pair and 4th layshaft but others have high wear on 3rd pair so it depends on your riding terrain as if you spend more time in 2nd or 3rd gear. but anything you can do to make a better gear set than the same ol crap more power to you. i would sure like to visit your shop over the winter as i winter in orlando and summer in NE Tenn.

G81 Can Cycle said:

Bill

In the works CNW will have full gear sets (gears and shafts) for the AMC box in the first quarter of 2016 We are tooling for it now. We have some slight changes to make them better

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Hi guys,

Great day today. There was a 'green' assembly that essentially means that all the parts for the primary were installed to check fit, clearances, rotation etc. Even though there will be a few minor tweaks, system looks and feels great.

Also the electronics package was finalized and tested. It will be a very clean and straight forward re-wire. The components are small and will easily fit in and around the stock Commando battery box. Of course, the system will operate with both Negative and Positive ground machines.

Tomorrow there will be juice to the system and we will see how it all works under actual power

The images below will answer any questions about where the belt runs. Remember, this is a completely new belt drive kit that uses a very strong Carbon/Poly belt, made by Gates and that is only 21mm wide







Matt / Colorado Norton Works

http://www.coloradonortonworks.com

Looking good Matt,
Now a little food for thought in your E-start. Is there enough room for a crank trigger mount for an EI? Now would be the time to get away from the EI at the cam. Maybe a little pow wow with Special Tool Solutions or Jim Comstock. Thinking out loud here now. :idea: E-start, Belt drive, EI all in one. We could be in Commando heaven. We would make the MKIII's envious. :mrgreen:
Cheers,
Tom
CNN

Nice.

VERY nice.

CanukNortonNut said:

Looking good Matt,
Now a little food for thought in your E-start. Is there enough room for a crank trigger mount for an EI? Now would be the time to get away from the EI at the cam. Maybe a little pow wow with Special Tool Solutions or Jim Comstock. Thinking out loud here now. :idea: E-start, Belt drive, EI all in one. We could be in Commando heaven. We would make the MKIII's envious. :mrgreen:
Cheers,
Tom
CNN

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That sounds a good idea

Update

Full install in our display model. Dark red parts are hard anodized. Gold is a temporary coating but production parts will look similar with a high strength coating

We are also discussing offering the inner primary in two different finishes. Both the high luster show polish but also more a muted satin finish. This for those that don't want the really bright, highly polished look on their bike











Also check in on the cNw site for additional details

http://coloradonortonworks.com/part-cat ... #post-1214

Next the system will be installed in a couple of machines and run hard. We are going for at least 1000 starts and inspection throughout to make sure everything is working as intended

We will be at Barbers Vintage Days in two weeks. There will be a starter display and also a full install on a running machine. We are located in our regular spot on the top tier in the pit area. Be sure to stop by if you are going to the show

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

www.coloradonortonworks.com

In the test running, I would make sure to attempt some serious wheelies to ensure the belt is up to what is possibly the highest strain it will ever see.

Matt discussed above offering the inner primary in a satin finish. Matt makes lots of billet parts and puts time into a bright polished finish which cannot be achieved on a cast aluminum part. I love this bright polished finish, and is why I am a recurring customer of CNW. But, I do catch some crap from other Norton riders when I ride my CNW Build 99. She is not a trailer queen, buyt still some people really seem to dislike a detailed and polished Commando (that is their right, as it is mine to have such a bike))

So I need some feedback. If you were interested in a E-Start from CNW, would you want brightly polished inner primary, or a satin finish to duplicate the look of the original cast primary? Consider this a poll or survey

Example of the satin finish is in picture below. I will get Matt to put up an example of the bright polished inner (it is the one I am getting on my new CNW Build 119)

G81 Can Cycle said:

So I need some feedback. If you were interested in a E-Start from CNW, would you want brightly polished inner primary, or a satin finish to duplicate the look of the original cast primary? Consider this a poll or survey

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Satin, for two reasons;
1 - It's closer to original, and
2 - this is a biggie for me, you can see a large amount of the inner cover from the right side that you can't easily access to polish. It would drive me nuts, to the point that I'd want to pull the entire primary apart just so it could be polished.

Nathan

what the cost diff?

Here's a first image of what the inner cover will look like polished. Image quality is not 100 % and it really looks like a mirror finish. It will certainly dull back over time, but relatively easy to keep up with some common aluminum cleaners and micro fiber towels (forget your old t-shirts....they will scratch it up)






So there would obviously be a big difference. John brought this up yesterday when we talked and the more I think about it, I can definitely see the need for a more subtle finish as well. Either go with more of a grey tone, stock look or a highly polished look. The satin would work nicely with a well used outer primary and for those that wanted to go all out, we also have a billet outer cover that will really finish off the whole assembly if you are going for the polished finish

Options are good though, so this is what we would be looking at:

- Polished with chrome starter
- Polished with black wrinkle finish starter
- Satin with chrome starter
- Satin with black wrinkle finish starter

As far as price difference, it would essentially come down to sand and polish time. On this cover it's 1-1.5 hours, so a 75.00-110.00 difference in price

Like John said, we would like to get feedback, so let us know what you think

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

http://www.coloradonortonworks.com

I would amend my prior statement somewhat about wanting satin after looking at my primary inner; its edge that wraps around the primary chain is polished, but not on the backside that faces the transmission. As long as that surface is polished to match the outer cover, I'd prefer the back side grayed. Already saving up for your kit!

Nathan