More charging info

MexicoMike said:

Well, all this discussion/science is, uh...interesting, I guess but the reality is that in real life, all the various charging combinations from OEM to whatever the latest advertised component magic seems to work OK. And sometimes it seems to me that the 'science' is proven to be incorrect. For example, there are posts that the OEM-type charging system is not suitable for Lithium (Shorai) batteries. Yet, my Shorai 18AH has been working flawlessly since 2010 with Alton E-start added in 2012. The charging system for the Shorai consisted of the OEM for 2 years and the (unnecessary) installation of a Podtronic concurrent with the installation of the the Alton.

Somebody's science says it won't work; real life experience proves it does. Why is there even a discussion? If the science doesn't fit reality, the 'science' that was used is wrong for the application/purpose.

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Shorai's warning isn't the result of a dabble at theoretical science.
It's the reaction to the real life problem of customer complaints when the customer has an inadequate charging system for their riding situation. The batteries did not work as they were not getting enough charge, the customers complained that the batteries were at fault, Shorai investigated and found the incompatibility. Real life.
I'm sure they thought it thru as the warning will serve to reduce battery sales somewhat. It should also prevent time loss on some customer complaints plus result in far fewer unhappy customers.

Glen

Dereck's post in #2 here is IMO the bottom line about using a Lithium battery on our charging systems. No charging scheme for a Norton that I'm aware of will provide 13.1 volts at idle. But at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. As long as the battery is being charged to at least 13.5 during normal riding, the battery will perform as expected. On my bike I get 14.5 volts at just 2000 RPM and my e-start never fails.

HRD said:

Ok ,would you be able to put forward some supporting ac theory ,electomagnetic field analysis, equivalent circuits and formulae for the 'on bike' situation .I have to admit remembering back some 48 years ago to permanent magnet alternators (dynamos) and the effects of shorting output has on the magnetic flux and any change in inductance is a struggle and I will have to do revision.Also the effects that temperature has on the magnets and the resulting change in output.

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I will provide a Thevenin equivalent circuit and enough analysis to describe the process, but I have no intentions of writing a book. Collecting real world empirical data to dispel the current myths and misunderstandings would be my goal.

Where you live is a big factor.
A friend in Vancouver has a minimum 30 minutes of snail speed traffic and traffic lights to deal with on every ride. He rides with the headlight on for safety.
His bikes are all old and discharge at idle like our Nortons.
He would not do well with Lithium batteries fitted to his old bikes. He wouldn't make it out of Vancouver!

Glen

"The batteries did not work as they were not getting enough charge, the customers complained that the batteries were at fault, Shorai investigated and found the incompatibility. Real life."

But "real life," unfortunately, includes charging systems that may not be working to the original spec so, a battery gets blamed for a poor charging system. My conclusion, from 11 YEARS of ACTUAL experience with a Shorai battery on a Norton Commando shows that the Norton charging system, IF WORKING to OEM spec, works satisfactorily with a Shorai Battery. Theoretical data is basically useless if factual data contradicts it.

Mike, that's a sample group of 1.
Shorai's sample is much larger and includes many people with different riding circumstances than yours.
It's hard for you to see it because the battery with stock charging suits your needs, why shouldn't it suit everyone's needs?
The way I use most of the old bikes here, get on and go, I could probably get away without a battery. In fact I rode the BSA for years without one.
That all changes when you go touring with an old bike, then all sorts of unplanned things occur. It found it was impossible to keep lights and engine on and stay in the range Maylar mentioned, when stuck in traffic.. That was with a new Alton and Podtronics, all new wiring, charging system working normally.


Glen

In slow traffic, I use an LED pilot lamp rather than the 60 W headlight. I could perhaps get away with using the Shorai battery.

Shorai can’t assume that riders of old wrecks don’t use 60 W headlight with a 120 W single phase alternator in slow traffic, so they rightly advise that their battery is not suitable for old wrecks.

How many other suppliers of upgrade goodies tell you nothing about the problems they cause until you phone in a complaint? Then they tell you “Oh yes, you’ve got to buy extra items A, B and C, then perform operations X, Y and Z, then it’ll work fine!”

Or even worse: “We’ve had no previous complaints.” Always a lie!

Ok I did some checks, with this lashup:



I may even have proved myself wrong about something, but not sure what.

1st test
Alternator connected to charging system (£8 Chinese “CBR600” reg/rec box), with the 0-30 A AC ammeter in line in one of the two AC wires from the Alton permanent magnet single phase dynamo replacement, driven by spur gear off the camshaft pinion.

Lights off, so only load is about 2 A to the ignition.

Rpm Amps
1200. Nil
2000. 4
4000. 12
5000. 14

Next time I revved it to 5000 I only saw 12 A, so you may ignore the 14 A reading, if you like

2nd test
Same as 1st test, but with 60 W halogen headlight and LED tail lamp on, so a load of about 7 A.

Results, so far as I could discern, exactly the same as 1st test.

3rd test
Alternator isolated from the charging system, ammeter connected across the alternator AC leads.
Result:
17 A at all rpm above 2,000.
Possibly 15 A at 1400 rpm.

This is the funny part. With the alternator shorted across the ammeter, it was hard to control the revs below 2000 rpm and the engine did not want to run at much under 1400 rpm. The alternator drive became noisy at low rpm. It’s always noisy at kickstarting speed, as the magnets pass the iron cores, but goes silent once the engine starts.

The short circuit made the armature somehow behave differently, physically, causing noise in the gear drive. I have no idea why, so I won’t bother guessing.

worntorn said:

Mike, that's a sample group of 1.
Shorai's sample is much larger and includes many people with different riding circumstances than yours.
It's hard for you to see it because the battery with stock charging suits your needs, why shouldn't it suit everyone's needs?
The way I use most of the old bikes here, get on and go, I could probably get away without a battery. In fact I rode the BSA for years without one.
That all changes when you go touring with an old bike, then all sorts of unplanned things occur. It found it was impossible to keep lights and engine on and stay in the range Maylar mentioned, when stuck in traffic.. That was with a new Alton and Podtronics, all new wiring, charging system working normally.


Glen

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Good points! I agree that a sample of one is a bit on the lean side!

As I understand it, NO battery is suitable for old wrecks in certain circumstances.

The problem that has been defined here is that at tickover or just above, with certain alternators and traditional bulbs, the battery isn’t being charged.

Thats not the batteries fault!

The Shorai is just more sensitive to this than an equivalent physical sized LA battery, primarily due to reduced AH.

So, if you ride a machine with a stock 10amp alternator, and use trad bulbs, and intend to spend long periods at very low rpm you should avoid a Shorai.

But it doesn’t take much to change those assumptions, simply fitting LED bulbs takes off a lot of draw. If in stationary traffic all you really need is an LED pilot light anyway which draw next to nothing. And if you push the boat out and fit a 3 phase 14.5 amp stator I really do think the problem goes away altogether.

All depends what you want to do with your bike really. Different horse for different courses etc.

Triton Thrasher said:

Ok I did some checks, with this lashup:

I may even have proved myself wrong about something, but not sure what.

1st test
Alternator connected to charging system (£8 Chinese “CBR600” reg/rec box), with the 0-30 A AC ammeter in line in one of the two AC wires from the Alton permanent magnet single phase dynamo replacement, driven by spur gear off the camshaft pinion.

Lights off, so only load is about 2 A to the ignition.

Rpm Amps
1200. Nil
2000. 4
4000. 12
5000. 14

Next time I revved it to 5000 I only saw 12 A, so you may ignore the 14 A reading, if you like

2nd test
Same as 1st test, but with 60 W halogen headlight and LED tail lamp on, so a load of about 7 A.

Results, so far as I could discern, exactly the same as 1st test.

3rd test
Alternator isolated from the charging system, ammeter connected across the alternator AC leads.
Result:
17 A at all rpm above 2,000.
Possibly 15 A at 1400 rpm.

This is the funny part. With the alternator shorted across the ammeter, it was hard to control the revs below 2000 rpm and the engine did not want to run at much under 1400 rpm. The alternator drive became noisy at low rpm. It’s always noisy at kickstarting speed, as the magnets pass the iron cores, but goes silent once the engine starts.

The short circuit made the armature somehow behave differently, physically, causing noise in the gear drive. I have no idea why, so I won’t bother guessing.

Click to expand...

Interesting numbers there, better than I’d expected I think.

Wish you‘d recorded the volts as well mind !

I have a pilot light but it's just not sufficient at night. In fact it wasn't sufficient for the Washington police during daytime. I was pulled over there and told to " Turn on your headlight" I replied that it was already on.
The response was " that's not a headlight, I can barely see that it's on!"
It was one of Goffy's LED pilot jobs.
Then I tried the Daylighter type, not from Goffy but from Bonneville. It's bright enough for daytime, but very poor for night riding, I would say unsafe.

I'm hopeful for the Daylighter 2.
At 30 watts LED it should be plenty bright enough, it just needs to have good focus.

Glen

Fast Eddie said:

Interesting numbers there, better than I’d expected I think.

Wish you‘d recorded the volts as well mind !

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Volts where?

Triton Thrasher said:

Volts where?

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Volts being used to charge the battery at different rpm (back to the topic of low rpm running at night).

Fast Eddie said:

As I understand it, NO battery is suitable for old wrecks in certain circumstances.

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And Shorai saying their battery is unsuitable wouldn’t stop me trying it.

Fast Eddie said:

Volts being used to charge the battery at different rpm (back to the topic of low rpm running at night).

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I can tell you it balances the approximately 7 A load on the centre zero DC ammeter in the headlight shell at 2400 rpm. Edit- in case I’m remembering wrong or deluding myself, I’ll check that on a run this week. Might even attach a voltmeter.

worntorn said:

I have a pilot light but it's just not sufficient at night. In fact it wasn't sufficient for the Washington police during daytime. I was pulled over there and told to " Turn on your headlight" I replied that it was already on.
The response was " that's not a headlight, I can barely see that it's on!"
It was one of Goffy's LED pilot jobs.
Then I tried the Daylighter type, not from Goffy but from Bonneville. It's bright enough for daytime, but very poor for night riding, I would say unsafe.

I'm hopeful for the Daylighter 2.
At 30 watts LED it should be plenty bright enough, it just needs to have good focus.

Glen

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Really? It can’t have been his T10 pilot. Honestly, at bike night meets this has proven itself brighter than some old boys headlights !

Look here:

IMHO I would only buy Goffs bulbs from Goff. Many of these things look identical… until you switch them on !

Triton Thrasher said:

And Shorai saying their battery is unsuitable wouldn’t stop me trying it.

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Hasn’t stopped me either, I’m running two in Triumphs and one in the Norton currently, all working perfectly.

But I have an Alton on a Vincent engine, so a different alternator to what I’m used to and a relatively slow reving engine. So I’m not sure yet if this is suitable for a Shorai…

Fast Eddie said:

Hasn’t stopped me either, I’m running two in Triumphs and one in the Norton currently, all working perfectly.

But I have an Alton on a Vincent engine, so a different alternator to what I’m used to and a relatively slow reving engine. So I’m not sure yet if this is suitable for a Shorai…

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Is the dynamo geared up from engine rpm on a Vincent?

Triton Thrasher said:

Is the dynamo geared up from engine rpm on a Vincent?

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Was wondrin’ that myself, maybe Glen knows?? If not I’ll have to look it up.