It's a long way to 920 type(rary)

Hi there,
I receive a call from Elring to day, they receive the cooper gasket to day, an after a close look, the ingenior think that they will use the Metal Soft CHG technology, you can find the description of it on www elring.com.
The cooper gasket will go on tuesday to the R&D departement for the final proposal, the only thing I know so far is that their technologies can withstand heat up to 500° F or 260° C
The only bad news is that they need 8 weeks to produce the gaskets, of course I understand that Mercedes, BMW or Audi get priority
BTW Elring ask me to keep the cooper gasket to put it their musea....
I hope the 0.8mm cooper gasket will hold 8 weeks, I will try to ride softly
Keep you posted
Yves

A useful aspect of the copper gasket is that it is a reliable dimension, meaning that it doesn’t crush much. This makes it very useful when trying to set the squish up to tight tolerances.

I would therefore like to ask you Yves, to ask if they can give us this info and stipulate an accurate ‘crushed’ thickness?

I confess that I’m surprised at how helpful they’ve been Yves. Have they mentioned minimum order quantities or prices yet?

Fast Eddie said:

A useful aspect of the copper gasket is that it is a reliable dimension, meaning that it doesn’t crush much. This makes it very useful when trying to set the squish up to tight tolerances.

I would therefore like to ask you Yves, to ask if they can give us this info and stipulate an accurate ‘crushed’ thickness?

I confess that I’m surprised at how helpful they’ve been Yves. Have they mentioned minimum order quantities or prices yet?

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Nigel,
The minimum order is 3 pieces, and I will know the price on tuesday, German technologies are never cheap...
I will ask them about the crush also
They are very helpfull and I think they like the challenge to...
Yves

What about crushed head gaskets causing warpage?

jseng1 said:

What about crushed head gaskets causing warpage?

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Not sure why they’d do that if they’re designed to crush X amount at Y torque. So long as the clamping force is uniform, why / how could it warp?

I’m not aware of composite gaskets, which crush, causing warpage?

Fast Eddie said:

Not sure why they’d do that if they’re designed to crush X amount at Y torque. So long as the clamping force is uniform, why / how could it warp?

I’m not aware of composite gaskets, which crush, causing warpage?

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Have you accurately measured a old used composite HG? Perfectly uniform? Hard to measure when they've gone bad. I had a couple leak on me and thought they were changing dimension - can't remember how I determined that. Went back to copper and they leaked even worse until I went to the wire and pliobond.

I didn’t try accurately measuring an old HG, I thought that perhaps they swell again when the clamping force is removed?

I simply measured it roughly to get an idea and then used the soft solder measuring method for the squish clearence, and fresh gasket of the same kind for the final build.

New head gasket installation video with Pliobond and .005" copper wire

Is Pliobond easy to clean after, let's say 10'000 miles when taking the head off for any reason?

My question exactly. At first glance, looks like it wd be a serious pain. Does it dry clear? Or dry at all?

Its a high temp contact cement. It drys and the high temp burns it a bit so it turns an amber color and it hardens somewhat. I scrape it off with a sharp wood chisel the same way that I scrape off residue & burnt oil when you peel off a composite gasket - its about the same amount of PIA.

Hi There,
Here be the pic from my 0.6mm HG, my opinion is that the blow start between the bore and the bolt hole in front of the spark plug, the thing is that the HG is burn also, so I tink that it first burn and then blow away.
As you can see there is no other blow places on the HG, even not between the two bores, to me the cooper was from bad quality, there was no trace from detonations on the pistons. here is the way I did to torque the head:
Put the head on with Pliobond following Jim instructions, torque the head and leave it one night, after 24 hours I retrorque the head an let the engine warm up 10 minutes, when cold I retorque the head again, then ride 200 kms and retorque the head and a last retorque at 500 kms.
To me Pliobond is a very good sealant, even with a part of the HG blowed away, it was still difficult to take the head off.
To day I was expecting a email from Elring, but nothings happens...I call Elring and they says that my contact person is on hollyday for two weeks and thet will need 10 weeks to make the gasket... I hate this kind of situation!
So I start searching another HG factory and I find one: Elmeso Reban in the city of Solingen in Germany, take a look at there web site (german only) I will call them tomorow
As you know I put a 0.8mm cooper HG on my engine and did 200 kms pass WE, so far so good...
Keep you posted

yves norton seeley said:

torque the head and leave it one night, after 24 hours I retrorque the head an let the engine warm up 10 minutes, when cold I retorque the head again, then ride 200 kms and retorque the head and a last retorque at 500 k

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Yes, this should be okay. I support you in the theory that there is something wrong with the quality of the copper gasket. Either thin in this area or matrial quality of the copper itself.

Wich you good luck finding a modern HG that is more suited to our dear engines.
If the thickness is correct, I may also be interested in a few copies.

Kvinnhering said:

Yes, this should be okay. I support you in the theory that there is something wrong with the quality of the copper gasket. Either thin in this area or matrial quality of the copper itself.

Wich you good luck finding a modern HG that is more suited to our dear engines.
If the thickness is correct, I may also be interested in a few copies.

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I will try to have a appointment on monday, Solingen is only 220 kms from Brussels
Keep you posted
Yves

Yves - When you blow a gasket you don't mess around do you?

I think you will be OK with the JS copper HG (as long as there isn't a low spot in your head or cylinders). I have never seen one blow. (You don't need to anneal it).

Hi there,
The news of the day: I ring Elmeso Reban and speak with a very fine man and we make a apointment for nex monday, so I will go to Solingen to explain my problem.
Elmeso is not a factory like Elring, it is more a workshop and they think also that they can solve the problem from the HG, more news on monday eve.
I also receive a call from Elring, I will have more news next week.
Anyhow I will play with the two companies.
Elmeso need four weeks to make the gaskets and the minimum tickness is 1mm, so I will grind 0.4mm from the head to have the same compression as with the 0.6mm
I will ask Elring to make a 1mm also and if I have problems with the compression, I can still put a gasket under the cylinder.
Believe it or not but there is a diference in power between a 0.6mm (the one that blow) and the 0.8mm that I am using now, I don't know how to explain it but with the 0.6 it was the "Whooo" feeling and with the 0.8 It is "Who" feeling.
Of course I was not sleeping this week, I dismantel the Fontana front brake for painting the sides and I rise up the Ceriani 8mm higher in the yokes, just to try...
Keep you posted
Yves

Yves, are you sure that they are talking about a 1mm ‘fitted’ thickness (ie crushed)?

Or is it 1mm thick before it’s crushed?

Hope you find the missing oo from your whooo soon matey !!

jseng1 said:

Yves - When you blow a gasket you don't mess around do you?

I think you will be OK with the JS copper HG (as long as there isn't a low spot in your head or cylinders). I have never seen one blow. (You don't need to anneal it).

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You right Jim, when I do something I do it good, even blowing the HG.
Please don't feel offensed if I try to find a solution for the HG, if the new HG is better as the cooper, you can use it also, but so far there is no evidence that it will be better as the cooper one.
Yves

You will be taking metal off a head that you can never put back. I do hope you find a better HG.

I would keep your motor together if its working - if the gasket blows in the same place then look at the head/cyl surface. Or maybe a leak started at a thin area of your .6mm gasket and hot gasses melted it away (very rare).

If you go with a crushable gasket then you should know how much its crushing so you can get the tight squish band you want. It will be harder to get that little bit of extra tight squish band HP (1mm is pushing it) with a crushable HG - beware pistons hitting the head.

Hi There,
I road a few kms this WE, the 0.8mm cooper HG sames to old so far.
I still try to find the reason why the 0.6mm HG blow?
The only reason I find: The Maney cylinder have a bore of 81.00mm, the HG squish band is 81.4mm, the 0.6mm HG is 81.00mm, so there must be a 0.2mm part of the gasket not touching the head, can this be the problem??
I buy HG from Jim Schmidt, if I remember weel they are 81.5mm or 81.6mm, and also buy some HG from Maney and they where 81.00.
The 0.6 HG was made here in Belgium, I ask for a bore of 81.00mm, when I receive the HG I see that one of the faces was normal and the other face as be machined to ritch the tickness of 0.6mm, they probably start from a sheet of cooper from 1.00mm and grind it to 0.6mm.
Tomorow I go to Slingen in Germany to meet the man from Elmeso, HG workshop, hope to find the solution there?
I will also order a 0.6mm HG from Jim Schmidt
BTW: last week I raise up the fork 8mm in the yokes, so the front of the bike is 8mm lower now, it makes a hudge difference in steering, mutch better in the corners, great!
Keep you posted about my visit to Elmeso tomorow
Yves