Hottest neato magneto spark

chasbmw said:

Only problem with a Joe Hunt Magneto is that they don't seem to have any form of advance and retard, starting must be interesting with fully advanced ignition.

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First kick starting has ALWAYS been one of the best parts of the Mag and the interesting part is its remarkable consistancy.

When I was trying out a bunch of Power Arc units, I had the advance curve remove on one and it turn out to be the best of all senarios.

Retardation is over rated. You can quote me on that.

Since it has no advance curve and Doug Mcrae tells us it makes less power than lowly old Boyer EI, I'm thinking the main reason for mounting one would be to try something different?
The kick start issue is no issue for Boyer . My old Boyer analog starts with one easy pushdown of the kicker on both bikes that are fitted with it, pretty much every time.

I recall Westwood racer Dave Foreman recounting how he convinced Dave Wildman to switch his very fast Triumph 500 twin racer from a good Lucas racing magneto to this new Boyer stuff back in the 80s. Dave Wildman became a believer when he picked up an extra 500 rpm on the back straight with the Boyer.
Sounds like that sort of thing is still happening.

I like any ignition that works, but it is really hard to fault this oldBoyer setup, once the pickup wires are secured and supported.

Glen

I have ran the old Boyar E/I for the last 30 years, but since I have owned and used Joe Hunt maggies on my old Triumpht I had no problem with a Joe Hunt on my Norton, they kick arse, people keep saying about no advance or retard, they don't need it, they start first kick ever time, they run to full revs without no problems, so I don't know why these poeple that don't have any experance with Joe Hunt maggies keep critizing them, after 39 years of ownership of my Norton I know which works for me, I will never go back to any other ingition system other than Joe Hunt and I have used a few.

Ashley

So how do you set up a joe hunt? Is the Ming set at the full advance point, or do you compromise between "normal" static timing and full advance? How does the bike run at low revs and do you ever get kickback when starting?

I set my Joe Hunt the same as nomal as points, I have a hot motor and it runs at low speed as good as high speed, it don't matter at what speed or revs you sit on it run perfect all through the rev rang, from low revs to cracking the throttle open it will just keep putting out a great spark, the faster the motor spins the better it gets.

After 5 year now running my Joe Hunt and over 25,000 miles it hasn't missed a beat, haven't touched it, the only thing I have done is take the front cover off and put a few drops of oil on the flet to lub the cam on the points.

I have run 4 diffrent ingition systems on my Norton and the Joe Hunt out does any of them the only diffrent is the spark plugs are set at 18th instead of 25th.

Ashley

How hot is the spark on an old Lucas magneto in good repair? I have about 3 of them and plan to fix one up for a P11.

Ashley

I know you like the maggie and it works well ,I would quite fancy one but not on the side, fitted on the back of the case. But I would like to try it first before all the work involved with cases and as I am as thick as shit is it easy to fit on the timing case points ?

J

there not as "hot" as the joe hunts, but if rebuilt by a qualified person they are really quite good (and will give you a good shock if dicking around with one) - i have rebuilt ones in my BSA and triumph and they are 1 kicker bikes and haven't had a problem in over 8 years on either
since your in the states doug wood is the man to rebuild them if you want them done correctly (probabaly others but he's recognized as the man here)


dougwood@netzero.net

motorson said:

How hot is the spark on an old Lucas magneto in good repair? I have about 3 of them and plan to fix one up for a P11.

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Fast Eddie said:

Doug / Matt, thanks for posting the pics of inside the timing cover.

I realise this will all be known stuff to old Norton hands, but not to a Triumph boy like me!

The intermediate gear / sprocket that drives both chains is presumably just a standard Dommie / Atlas part, is that so? And are they all the same? And is any machining required to fit one to a Commando?

I see that the mag drive chain does not have a tensioner, I assume that's because this chain has almost no resistance to turn, and therefore hardly wears / stretches, is this correct?

I'm too far progressed to fit one to my current build, but I'm really like this idea so will consider it in the future.

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Having a mag fired Atlas, and also some Cdo timing gears (same as Atlas), I think fitting a Maggie to the timing case rear is doable without too much trouble. The main problem will be to locate the center hole for the drive and the mounting studs. I think it could be done on the bike if a drill template were first machined to locate all holes. The drill template should itself be located off the intermediate drive spindle (a hole in the template to fit over the spindle). Then it is only a matter to get the angle right swinging the template in an arc about the spindle.....the installation should not be too critical in this respect. Getting a drawing showing hole dimensional layout may be the most difficult part of the job.

The mag drive chain is endless, and no tensioner is provided. However, the three mounting studs are "waisted".....that is they are 5/16 inch Dia. cut down to 1/4 in the area where they pass thru the mag flanges. This gives a modicum of chain adjustment, and is necessary as much to avoid an over tight chain as well as a slack chain.

No special seals are required....the mag has its own drive shaft seal, and a paper gasket under the mounting flange is all that is needed (this is the ONE place I never had oil leaks).

As an aside, somewhere I read (can not find it again), that mag fired Atlas's would beat the snot out of points fired Atlas's. I can attest to that....my '63 was da king in the '60's.

Slick

I have all the jigs to drill a Commando case for the mag mount behind the engine. It requires welding to build up some material for the mounting studs. It is not a minor project -I have done several of them.

You have to use the early style cam or make a custom sprocket for the Commando cam to move the chain position out. Then you need the early intermediate gear and spindle with mods to the timing cover to make it fit.

The nice thing is then you can use the advance unit from the Atlas which is a big plus if you have a high compression motor. It fits right on the Hunt mag shaft. Jim

Ashley, you are correct, I have never used a Joe Hunt, however I can read. When a top racer like Doug Mcrae tells me that EI makes more power and gives a smoother running engine at high RPM, I believe it. The rest of us Roadies bolt on various items and do a seat of the pants dyno test then believe what we want to believe. An experienced racer knows right away when horsepower goes missing or when some extra power shows up, especially on a vintage bike with < 100 HP. So no, I am not seeing the reason for changing to a mag and dropping some horsepower + losing smoothness at high rpm. Second time in a month I have heard this from a racer.
That said, if I had a bike fitted with a mag , Joe Hunt or other, and it worked well, I would leave it be. I just don't see it as an upgrade given the information below.

Doug MacRae said:

I raced using a mag for a few years, I loved being battery free; I did have few unlucky issues with it at different times, a broken wire, fried condensor, bad coil and a broken linkage inside that drove me crazy until I figured out what it was (sometimes it would 'catch' and work and sometimes it wouldn't);

. I will admit that when I had to do an emergency track side switch to a Boyer I realized that you get 2-3 hp with the electronic, you feel it being a little smoother at high revs.

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Doug is right from what I have tested. An electronic ignition can make slightly more power than a mag.

Also an electronic ignition can produce it's maximum output low in the RPM range where it is needed. The highest voltage is needed when the cylinder pressure is the highest. The highest compression pressure is seen at cranking and at peak torque. As the rpm rises above peak torque the cylinder pressure drops substantially and the voltage requirement is lower. Jim

A mag is really personal choice. I love em because I don't need a battery and when you have cafe racer - cleanliness means a lot. I have nothing good to say about Luca mags and yes I enjoyed the precision of IE when racing - except when the wires failed at a nation race and cost me big time. Many keep missing the fact that a Boyer does not spark the 1st time around - so you have to spin it twice when kicking. The mag does spark the 1st time and usually starts before the kickstarter reaches bottom. Also - there is a big difference between the early mags and the late ones with the super powerful rare earth magnets.

I remember a racer laughing when I suggested a mag. He was promoting an IE and it failed him most of the season and ruined his hopeful year - mostly from dead batteries that you don't need with a mag. So anything can happen.

I am curious about Petes statement about fixed advance with a power arc EI. How do you verify when its sparking if its multi spark? Can you use a timing light or not? And which spark will be triggering the timing light - the 1st or the last?

Batrider - The Vid is at about 7000 RPM engine speed or 3500 RPM mag speed. I am loading the mag to the max to make sure nothing breaks down.

Auldblue - Mounting the mag on the side of a Commando is very easy. You just add the adapter and bolt it on according to the instructions. You don't have to remove or modify the timing cover and you can set the timing with cigarette paper in the points while viewing the degree marks on the timing cover and rotor.

Or get Jim Comstock to set it up behind the cylinders and forget about it.

See instructions for machining and mounting behind the cylinders of Commando bikes here:
http://www.jsmotorsport.com/technical_m ... ersion.asp

jseng1 said:

AI am curious about Petes statement about fixed advance with a power arc EI. How do you verify when its sparking if its multi spark? Can you use a timing light or not? And which spark will be triggering the timing light - the 1st or the last?

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FYI, the multi spark was also programmed out. I found the multi spark freaky and strange. The single spark with no curve was my favorite. Hence the move to the mag.

They are so easy to install on the points cover, just set your motor on the timing marks, set up the adapter plate install and tighten the tapped adapter to the end of the cam then the hex key that joins the cam adapter to the maggie, because I have done this before it was easy and only took me about 1/2 hour to set up and have the bike running.

Once I had it all set up and running I pulled it off again so I could scribbe my timing marks and where the maggie is set to run on the inside of my points cover, this is good when you need to do any maintenance on the maggie I just set the motor on the timing marks unbolt the maggie and work on it on the bench, when finished I just bolt it back on with all my marks lined up and she is all ready to go without retiming the maggie.

So simple, to me this is the way I like it, to much work and hassles to mount behind the motor for my likings, plus I like it hanging out in the cool air, I don't care what others think about it hanging on the side, I like it and it works for me and that all I care about.

Ashley

[quote="jseng1" Many keep missing the fact that a Boyer does not spark the 1st time around - so you have to spin it twice when kicking. The mag does spark the 1st time and usually starts before the kickstarter reaches bottom.

I am one of the many on this, just don't see what difference it makes whether it starts top of kick or bottom, as long as it starts first kick, which both my Boyer equipped bikes almost always do.
The only advantage I see with a mag is the ability to run without a battery, and this can be a pretty big advantage at times.
Glen

Once my Norton has started for the day it will fire up fist kick everytime, sometimes I just sit on the seat and give it a lazy kick and it still fires up every time, first start for the day it nomaly takes 2 kicks, first one to draw the fuel into my motor the second to start, but most of the time it will fire up first kick, I am running Jims PWKs so no ticklers.

Ashley

Obviously my 650ss had a magneto. I was once on a long trip overnight, when the alternator fell to bits, startlingly it was a Lucas alternator, I know that Lucas stuff generally doesn't do that , but there you are. I carried on draining the battery until there were no more lights. Then I stopped and waited for the sun to come up. When it did , off we went, no problems.
The only reason that manufacturers dropped magnetos was because points and coil was so much cheaper, nothing to do with function. Solid state ignition systems were a thought bubble of a bright spark in the early 60s.
cheers
wakeup

Worntorn. What I'm trying to say about the mag sparking 1st revolution and the Boyer sparking the 2nd revolution is that you only need to kick with the mag hard enough to spin the motor once. With the Boyer you have to kick it harder to get it to spin twice - the 1st revolution is wasted just setting up the electronics so it will spark. I have also used a Boyer and the rare earth mag just starts easier.

And yes Pete - the power arc multi spark seems erratic and I would program it for single spark if I had one.

Another thing about the mag is that it just looks good with its alum housing. Batterys are just plain ugly no matter how you look at them. Coils etc are not pretty and the one thing you can depend on with a battery is that it will eventually die and need replacing again and again and that's money down the drain. To be honest - we all know that a good EI works great. I just prefer the reliability and simplicity of a mag

Cheers ashman
I just didn't know ,I've had a good deko at the videos etc ,but I don't fancy sending cases on a 10000 mile round trip to fit to the rear of the case. But that is where it should fit ,but I want to try it first so if I buy one I will strap it on like yours.

Jseng

Thanks for the info. However it might be a tad cost prohibitive to send parts back and forth.

J