Hottest neato magneto spark

pete.v · Jun 15, 2014

pete.v said:
acotrel said:

I suggest that fitting the magneto sticking out in the breeze is like fitting a nice new fairing onto a race bike. It makes crashes much more likely to happen.

Click to expand...

Is that what you really suggest or just a vague observation? Why discourage ones favor? Is it simply because it isn't yours?
Who in the hell gives a crap about racing anyhow? The .1 percenters, that's who!

Is this where you racers start chiming in and take over? Go ahead, I'm done, maybe.

acotrel, I may have been a bit harsh and defensive. I care about racer and the heritage they preserve.

My bike is set up to be a stage 1 hot street bike, or as much as a Commando can be in this day and age. I have run a gammut of time/ignition devices except for the one that cost half as much as a Mag. To me the detriments of said device seem out of propotion to paying even twice as much for the mag with all the advantages it offers.

Not that I would go that way, but my cases are casted over at the old mag boss and even if it weren't, the bolt on option and the direct drive approach was an easy desision for me.

As far as being attractive is concerned, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the performance attributes far out weighs any obsene look that may be preceived by others, IMHO.

How come nobody disses on the superchargers? If the mag out the side looks like a wart, then the drouin unit make the Commando look like the elephant man.

And do we really need to explain the advantages of a self contained massive spark device?

acotrel, if an apology is in order to you and all the racers, then you got it. If not, then never mind.

jseng1 · Jun 15, 2014

Old Bloke said:
Great vid, impressive output. I'd love to run a magneto one day, but not whilst it needs to be bolted onto the points housing. I know it requires major rework to move it, but It's ugly as sin sticking out the side. imo.

To mount it behind the cylinders go here:

http://www.jsmotorsport.com/technical_m ... ersion.asp

Its a lot of work but you end up with this

To appreciate a rare earth mag you need to have owned an EI and have it fail on you while traveling or racing - and then own a magneto. That way you know the diff in reliability. There is a reason that small planes use magnetos and its all about quality and reliability. Also - a magneto sparks the first revolution and so starts easier & sooner - often before the kickstarter reaches bottom.. Most EIs do not spark the 1st revolution so you have to kick the hell out of it each time to spin it around twice so it fires the 2nd revolution.

Old Bloke · Jun 15, 2014

Yes, it looks really nice fitted in that way, almost "as designed"

My Pazon Altair EI ignition does fire on the first time the magnets pass the hall effect sensor, so these will fire on the first revolution. I know this because I wanted to know and tested it.

Peter

jseng1 · Jun 15, 2014

Old Bloke said:
Yes, it looks really nice fitted in that way, almost "as designed"

My Pazon Altair EI ignition does fire on the first time the magnets pass the hall effect sensor, so these will fire on the first revolution. I know this because I wanted to know and tested it.

Peter

That's good to know about the Pazon - some other EI's don't have this feature. Now if you could just get rid of the battery as you see on some dirt bikes. Substituting a capacitor for the battery isn't good enough. Trying to start a Commando with a EI and capacitor can be very difficult. What about the Pazon - will it start easily with a capacitor and no battery?

jseng1 · Jun 15, 2014

ashman said:
... when someone ask whats that thing is you can give them a good bull shit story and they will believe you or you could let them grab the plug lead and give it a kick and watch their eye balls pop out of the eye sockets.
Ashley

PRICELESS!

kerinorton · Jun 15, 2014

Matt Spencer said:
Heres the old SRII Lucas , on a Triumph . The Hunts a similar Contrivance - ROTATEING MAGNET , rather than rotateing armature .
The Armatures fixed . Thus less vibration fatiugue , chaffing of windings etc . Post 56 K2Fs had larger output shafts & bearings .
The earlier ones sheared the shaft / armature ( brass ) join . The Porcipine and G-45 ran the SRII , as the K2F fell to bits - with
the inirtial forces / rapid acceleration & deceleration .
The SRII in SRI & SRIIII were fitted to BSA fire pumps and Tractors . a I per Cyl. IIII = 4 Cyl . HUNT is a extremely similar type .
Though this Rare Earth bit seems to be a new development . Aft of the Cyls a A. Adv. drops right in . Though manual Adv. was common .

Is this where you racers start chiming in and take over? Go ahead, I'm done, maybe.
72 Commando Combat"ish" Hybrid Roadster "Red Hot"
These are simple machines, don't over think it.

Click to expand...

That where the Commando one ought to be. just like the old days.

Simpler the Better . Better they run the better , idle response & milage . And if somebodys got the restraint and maturity not to thrash it into the ground , Full Marks .

ashman · Jun 15, 2014

Some say they look ugly sticking outside like that, not me I think it beauhtfull, its a nice peice of workmanship and proud to show anyone that is intrested or ask what it is, some other things to think about as well when mounted behind the motor, more heat, leaking fuel from carbies on to a spark, harder to work on it when needed, a lot more work needed to be able to mount it if you don't have a earlier case etc etc, so there are reasons for which everway its mounted or run.
A friend of mine put soft mounting bolts in his the reason is that if he did come off hard the bolts will break and the maggie will just slide away from the crashing bike without major damage to the maggie, I have come down on the maggie side when a car with it left indercators on and turned right while I was going around it and layed it down, the maggie cover grinded the plug leads off and the ends of the leads where fuzzed in the maggie cover from sliding on the road, didn't even crack the maggie cover.
I don't plan on coming off ever again, so I don't let it worry me there are more things to worry about these days, if you are going to think about coming off then you should keep your bikes in the shed to look at it and never ride again as some poeple do.
But I do have soft bolts on the mounts just in case, with racing you do have more chances to coming off hard, I brought my first Joe Hunt maggie from a friend that had it mounted of his racing Triumph for that reason about crashing all the time he decided to sell it, so I got a completely rebuilt JH maggie cheap which was mounted on my Triumph for over 9 years and I was hooked from day one and I done 250,000ks on that bike with the JH all trouble free and was still on it when i sold it.

Ashley

kerinorton · Jun 15, 2014

They use magneto's on aeroplanes. I wonder why. Some one mentioned the magneto is a rotating magnet inside a fixed coil. We already have one of those on our Commando's so why hasn't someone thought of combining the two. Might maker the primary housing a bit bigger. Personally I like the cleaner lines of the bike as it is. My Boyer hasn't given many problems but its not perfect though.

Doug MacRae · Jun 15, 2014

I raced using a mag for a few years, I loved being battery free; I did have few unlucky issues with it at different times, a broken wire, fried condensor, bad coil and a broken linkage inside that drove me crazy until I figured out what it was (sometimes it would 'catch' and work and sometimes it wouldn't); all being said the bike would start very well and idle without a problem. I will admit that when I had to do an emergency track side switch to a Boyer I realized that you get 2-3 hp with the electronic, you feel it being a little smoother at high revs.

If you want to install a mag behind the cases, this is what the timing side looked like on my racebike with the extra chain drive to the mag-

The other side with the cover off-

Matt Spencer · Jun 15, 2014

Have to take the series one Fastback as being ' Atlas ' Spec . :?

couple of pictures of std. Norton Domi. timing case drive assy .

and a Flywheel , Er . . . Auto Advance unit .

Cam chain is further out & adjuster pedastal longer . A longer arm on a tensioner would do it , though a custom tensioner would be superior .

Mags were dropped as a cost cutting exercise . 73 before the Contact Breaker assembly was satisfactory , due to cost cutting . :x

Fast Eddie · Jun 16, 2014

Doug / Matt, thanks for posting the pics of inside the timing cover.

I realise this will all be known stuff to old Norton hands, but not to a Triumph boy like me!

The intermediate gear / sprocket that drives both chains is presumably just a standard Dommie / Atlas part, is that so? And are they all the same? And is any machining required to fit one to a Commando?

I see that the mag drive chain does not have a tensioner, I assume that's because this chain has almost no resistance to turn, and therefore hardly wears / stretches, is this correct?

I'm too far progressed to fit one to my current build, but I'm really like this idea so will consider it in the future.

Old Bloke · Jun 16, 2014

jseng1 said:
Old Bloke said:

Yes, it looks really nice fitted in that way, almost "as designed"

My Pazon Altair EI ignition does fire on the first time the magnets pass the hall effect sensor, so these will fire on the first revolution. I know this because I wanted to know and tested it.

Peter

Click to expand...

That's good to know about the Pazon - some other EI's don't have this feature. Now if you could just get rid of the battery as you see on some dirt bikes. Substituting a capacitor for the battery isn't good enough. Trying to start a Commando with a EI and capacitor can be very difficult. What about the Pazon - will it start easily with a capacitor and no battery?

I have to be honest and say I've never tried it without a battery. That may be a good idea, in case things go wrong on the road. I run a Boyer powerbox for the charging, which is supposed to supply sufficient voltage to run without a battery, but I'd be happier to see that first hand.

Hobot · Jun 16, 2014

I love the magneto on my lawn mower and big genset which has magneto very similar to what's shown here. I view the big old power making warts as a flying fickle finger of fate salute to faith in the future.

batrider · Jun 16, 2014

I have the Pazon Altair and it will start without a battery - just the 2MC capacitor. It has a Lucas Powerbase 3 phase alternator though.

What RPM were you spinning the mag?

Russ

Nater_Potater · Jun 16, 2014

kerinorton said:
They use magneto's on aeroplanes. I wonder why.

They use mags on airplanes primarily due to the entirely self-contained aspect. That, and with impulse drives, they will spark at very low speeds (practically zero rpm).

kerinorton said:
Someone mentioned the magneto is a rotating magnet inside a fixed coil. We already have one of those on our Commando's so why hasn't someone thought of combining the two.

Magnetos have been built both inner and outer magnet. What distinguishes a magneto from our current points system is that both primary and secondary windings are wound around the same core, and the primary winding is also the same coil that generates the current from the rotating magnet. It's because of this that the magneto is so great for high-rpm operation, as the primary output goes up with rpm, whereas a points system progressively gets worse as the rpms increase.
The biggest difficulty with having the current alternator's location play home to the magneto (I like the idea, by the way) is the fact that the points are included in the package and the secondary/spark plug wire originates from said windings. Running oil in the primary precludes that happening. A belt drive, on the other hand, has the potential to open up a whole new world. Any takers?

Nathan

Hobot · Jun 16, 2014

There is another little risk to be aware of mounting a contact breaker system under carbs

acotrel · Jun 16, 2014

pete.v said:
pete.v said:

acotrel said:

I suggest that fitting the magneto sticking out in the breeze is like fitting a nice new fairing onto a race bike. It makes crashes much more likely to happen.

Click to expand...

Is that what you really suggest or just a vague observation? Why discourage ones favor? Is it simply because it isn't yours?
Who in the hell gives a crap about racing anyhow? The .1 percenters, that's who!

Is this where you racers start chiming in and take over? Go ahead, I'm done, maybe.

Click to expand...

acotrel, I may have been a bit harsh and defensive. I care about racer and the heritage they preserve.

My bike is set up to be a stage 1 hot street bike, or as much as a Commando can be in this day and age. I have run a gammut of time/ignition devices except for the one that cost half as much as a Mag. To me the detriments of said device seem out of propotion to paying even twice as much for the mag with all the advantages it offers.

Pete, you don't have to apologise to me, I understand where you are coming from. What happens on an old race bike in it's first few meetings is probably what happens to a road bike in ten years. I really like the Joe Hunt magneto. I used a Lucas SR4 with twin leads to each plug on my Triumph. I raced it for 12 years and being rotating magnet, it never missed a beat. I would never mount the ignition system hanging out in the breeze, that can get expensive very quickly. Years ago I saw an MV 125 monoalbero with the magneto stuck out the timing side - so the factories actually did it. To my mind if you fall of on that side, it is back on the trailer for the bike.
I've actually thought about machining the cases on my 850 motor to fit an SR2 magneto under the carbs. My current system is a Boyer running total loss. It is easy to forget to keep the battery charged and lose it if it sulphates up through going flat. - Always a bloody pain.
Will the intermediate gear off a dominator fit the commando engine ?

Not that I would go that way, but my cases are casted over at the old mag boss and even if it weren't, the bolt on option and the direct drive approach was an easy desision for me.

As far as being attractive is concerned, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the performance attributes far out weighs any obsene look that may be preceived by others, IMHO.

How come nobody disses on the superchargers? If the mag out the side looks like a wart, then the drouin unit make the Commando look like the elephant man.

And do we really need to explain the advantages of a self contained massive spark device?

acotrel, if an apology is in order to you and all the racers, then you got it. If not, then never mind.

Boanerges · Aug 6, 2014

ashman said:
What does the Hogslayer run on his drag bike.

The Hogslayer had the big Joe Hunt magnetos. The were crafted by Joe Hunt himself. Normally the magnetos will fire at top dead and bottom dead of each cycle. The Hogslayer mags were made to only fire at the Top dead firing event. This supposedly left a little bit of unburned nitro in the cylinders to help light the next ignition cycle's combustion event. This info came from T.C. himself when I asked him yesterday at Sunset Motors home of the Hogslayer.

Bernhard · Aug 7, 2014

hobot said:
There is another little risk to be aware of mounting a contact breaker system under carbs

fit a splash guard under the carbs :!: :idea:

chasbmw · Aug 7, 2014

Only problem with a Joe Hunt Magneto is that they don't seem to have any form of advance and retard, starting must be interesting with fully advanced ignition.

Hottest neato magneto spark

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