EV drawbacks

marshg246 · Jul 8, 2024

Richard Tool said:
Here at the New Jersey shore there is a push going on from energy companies to construct wind turbines offshore in the Atlantic Ocean. Local politicians are leading the opposition for a variety of reasons- environmental concerns , impact on commercial fishing and more . I suspect the real fear is property values as many consider them eyesores. Here is the created image of what it may look like…
View attachment 115247
.. yet many of the property owners who oppose wind turbines
drive electric cars . Apparently they don’t recognize or care what demands there will be on the electric grid when everyone drives electric cars , thus fostering the need for additional means of generating electricity.

When they were first proposed for Ocean City Maryland, they were to be low enough and far enough out to not be seen from the beach. Now that the current administration is auctioning the rights to install, they are to be 11.5 from the beach and over 900 feet high: https://oceancitymd.gov/oc/wp-content/uploads/OCMD-Offshore-Wind-Fact-Sheet-Infographic-V2-1.pdf

I love the idea of power from the sea but, IMHO, this is not the way. For one thing, there are wave power generators to be explored that are invisible or nearly so.

Calling windmills wind turbines is a little silly - we need to think for a few minutes on how to use the wind without using 9th century technology! The "wind turbines" are a windmill that turns an alternator or generator - nothing more.

baz · Jul 8, 2024

marshg246 said:
When they were first proposed for Ocean City Maryland, they were to be low enough and far enough out to not be seen from the beach. Now that the current administration is auctioning the rights to install, they are to be 11.5 from the beach and over 900 feet high: https://oceancitymd.gov/oc/wp-content/uploads/OCMD-Offshore-Wind-Fact-Sheet-Infographic-V2-1.pdf

I love the idea of power from the sea but, IMHO, this is not the way. For one thing, there are wave power generators to be explored that are invisible or nearly so.

Calling windmills wind turbines is a little silly - we need to think for a few minutes on how to use the wind without using 9th century technology! The "wind turbines" are a windmill that turns an alternator or generator - nothing more.

Offshore wind farms have many issues that are generally kept from the public

kommando · Jul 8, 2024

In the UK election a few days ago the Green party got 4 MP's elected under the banner of saving the planet. One of the 4 is a well known objector to a new 100 mile run of pylons needed to take the wind turbine electricity to the cities. Words fail me, though I do hope he succeeds

.

baz · Jul 8, 2024

From April 1st next year EVs will have to pay road tax (road fund licence)in the UK
Hopefully none of them will be wearing the road out until then?
It's not like they are heavy or anything!

daveforty · Jul 8, 2024

I notice that (post election / change of government in the UK) the concept of 'road pricing' for EVs has cropped up, 6p per mile mentioned in the newspaper article I saw. Which was inevitable considering the amount of money the government wouldnt be collecting from fuel duty and associated VAT.

kommando · Jul 9, 2024

daveforty said:
Which was inevitable considering the amount of money the government wouldnt be collecting from fuel duty and associated VAT.

If fuel duty stays in place then the road pricing should only apply to EV (or maybe not), another nail in its coffin as then even charging at home would no longer be saving money. So even less private buyers would be buying EV and second hand prices would fall even further leaving just the company car user interested due to their £4500 a year bribe to lease one.

The lessons of the Elizabethan window tax is never learnt, whatever black box they come up with will be surrounded by a faraday cage to stop the data being collected.

ashman · Jul 9, 2024

The biggest problem with EV cars is the long livery of them, how long does the battery last after years of being drained and recharged, how much to replace the batteries when they do start to wear out and fail as well when they are getting old how long do they run for compared to new ones and as they get older they would also take longer to recharge.
I see now here in Aus the price of a new EV is so much higher than a fuel run car and I have also seen now that the early models that came on the market are getting old and there are lots being sold on the second hand market, maybe the owners got a shock on how much it cost to upgrade/install new batteries, but from new high prices to a big drop in prices for a used EV that is only a few years old.
Battery tec has got better as the years go but Australia is a big vast country and the range between charging stations as well fuel stations can be over 500+kms in places and as I say when batteries get older the range they go will decrease or how fast you go.
I think I stick to my 24year old diesel LR Defender with both tanks full I can travel over 1200km and only take a few minutes to fill.
As well how much does it cost to recharge EVs at service stations, our Gov keeps telling everyone that there are going to be recharging station right across the whole of Aus but a lot of outback stations are off grid and have to make their own power from generators that rely on diesel just to run their pumps and the power they use.
Our old coal powered power stations are all getting to their use by date, renewables take up a lot of farm producing lands, wind farm have a short life before they need renewing, and one leader wants to built nuclear power station 7 in fact at a huge cost and still be over 25 years before the first one is up and running and of course there be a huge cost blow out before that happens, we have a small population spread far and wide and of course they all want us to use public transport, ok if the cost of catching a bus or train becomes cheaper.
Which ever way we go it all boils down to the all mighty $$$$, cost of living is already hitting us hard and they want us all to buy EVs that is way out of normal peoples budgets and even harder when no longer working.
Rant over but, whats the cost of old EVs to keep on the road after they start to wear out, buy a new one every 5 years and get nothing for your trade in, maybe I have it all wrong but batteries don't last forever, then there is the disposal of the old batteries.

Ashley

marshg246 · Jul 9, 2024

ashman said:
The biggest problem with EV cars is the long livery of them, how long does the battery last after years of being drained and recharged, how much to replace the batteries when they do start to wear out and fail as well when they are getting old how long do they run for compared to new ones and as they get older they would also take longer to recharge.
I see now here in Aus the price of a new EV is so much higher than a fuel run car and I have also seen now that the early models that came on the market are getting old and there are lots being sold on the second hand market, maybe the owners got a shock on how much it cost to upgrade/install new batteries, but from new high prices to a big drop in prices for a used EV that is only a few years old.
Battery tec has got better as the years go but Australia is a big vast country and the range between charging stations as well fuel stations can be over 500+kms in places and as I say when batteries get older the range they go will decrease or how fast you go.
I think I stick to my 24year old diesel LR Defender with both tanks full I can travel over 1200km and only take a few minutes to fill.
As well how much does it cost to recharge EVs at service stations, our Gov keeps telling everyone that there are going to be recharging station right across the whole of Aus but a lot of outback stations are off grid and have to make their own power from generators that rely on diesel just to run their pumps and the power they use.
Our old coal powered power stations are all getting to their use by date, renewables take up a lot of farm producing lands, wind farm have a short life before they need renewing, and one leader wants to built nuclear power station 7 in fact at a huge cost and still be over 25 years before the first one is up and running and of course there be a huge cost blow out before that happens, we have a small population spread far and wide and of course they all want us to use public transport, ok if the cost of catching a bus or train becomes cheaper.
Which ever way we go it all boils down to the all mighty $$$$, cost of living is already hitting us hard and they want us all to buy EVs that is way out of normal peoples budgets and even harder when no longer working.
Rant over but, whats the cost of old EVs to keep on the road after they start to wear out, buy a new one every 5 years and get nothing for your trade in, maybe I have it all wrong but batteries don't last forever, then there is the disposal of the old batteries.

Ashley

There's really no point in going on about the inevitable! Sure, there are places in the world where EVs do not currently make sense, but then there are the coasts of the US. Also, Hybrids or Plug-In Hybrids can go where gas or diesel cars can go. Just like the livery stables shrunk and died when the horse-less carriages started taking over, the fuel powered cars will go away too, or at least most that are for commuting.

You like diesel. In my area there are 0 to 1 pumps at most gas stations with diesel and often, they are out. In fact, if not already, soon there will be more charging stations that diesel pumps in the area and many are free.

In Fairfax County, Virginia (1.15M people), there are 194 charging stations and 137 of them are free! Northern Virginia is very populated, but most of Virginia is lowly populated, still Virginia has 860 charging stations and 60% are free.

BTW, Australia has 2307 charging stations, and some are free. It seems that free hasn't caught on as a customer draw there yet. Here grocery stores and the like have free charging because it costs them very little, and they get additional customers.

baz · Jul 10, 2024

ashman said:
The biggest problem with EV cars is the long livery of them, how long does the battery last after years of being drained and recharged, how much to replace the batteries when they do start to wear out and fail as well when they are getting old how long do they run for compared to new ones and as they get older they would also take longer to recharge.
I see now here in Aus the price of a new EV is so much higher than a fuel run car and I have also seen now that the early models that came on the market are getting old and there are lots being sold on the second hand market, maybe the owners got a shock on how much it cost to upgrade/install new batteries, but from new high prices to a big drop in prices for a used EV that is only a few years old.
Battery tec has got better as the years go but Australia is a big vast country and the range between charging stations as well fuel stations can be over 500+kms in places and as I say when batteries get older the range they go will decrease or how fast you go.
I think I stick to my 24year old diesel LR Defender with both tanks full I can travel over 1200km and only take a few minutes to fill.
As well how much does it cost to recharge EVs at service stations, our Gov keeps telling everyone that there are going to be recharging station right across the whole of Aus but a lot of outback stations are off grid and have to make their own power from generators that rely on diesel just to run their pumps and the power they use.
Our old coal powered power stations are all getting to their use by date, renewables take up a lot of farm producing lands, wind farm have a short life before they need renewing, and one leader wants to built nuclear power station 7 in fact at a huge cost and still be over 25 years before the first one is up and running and of course there be a huge cost blow out before that happens, we have a small population spread far and wide and of course they all want us to use public transport, ok if the cost of catching a bus or train becomes cheaper.
Which ever way we go it all boils down to the all mighty $$$$, cost of living is already hitting us hard and they want us all to buy EVs that is way out of normal peoples budgets and even harder when no longer working.
Rant over but, whats the cost of old EVs to keep on the road after they start to wear out, buy a new one every 5 years and get nothing for your trade in, maybe I have it all wrong but batteries don't last forever, then there is the disposal of the old batteries.

Ashley

Batteries don't last too long, and I believe there are some very cheap older EVs on the market
I wouldn't know because I haven't looked
Think yourself lucky you don't live in greater London Ash
Your defender would cost you £12.50 or $20 aus per day every time you drove it plus £600 or $1140.00 per year for road tax
And it's getting worse with 20 mph limits springing up everywhere

Fast Eddie · Jul 10, 2024

daveforty said:
I notice that (post election / change of government in the UK) the concept of 'road pricing' for EVs has cropped up, 6p per mile mentioned in the newspaper article I saw. Which was inevitable considering the amount of money the government wouldnt be collecting from fuel duty and associated VAT.

Indeed.

As inevitable as the sun coming up!

Often stated by some, and conveniently ignored by others!

EVs are subsidised heavily by the gov… and generally purchased by the middle class… with the subsidies paid for by taxes paid by the working class…!

But hey… ‘green’… !

Grandad · Jul 10, 2024

I'm happy enough for transitional technologies to evolve but .......

The sooner UK EV drivers get to pay their share of " road tax " etc etc and also get all those subsidies taken away the better !

I'm all about fairness, we non EV drivers are not only paying our own share of taxes but we are paying " their " share as well !!

An attack of fairness ought to take that smug look off their faces and turn them into a healthy shade of " GREEN " ...... bring it on

If the new Labour Government is true to their ethos - socialism - then it didn't ought to be long coming.

marshg246 · Jul 10, 2024

Fast Eddie said:
Indeed.

As inevitable as the sun coming up!

Often stated by some, and conveniently ignored by others!

EVs are subsidised heavily by the gov… and generally purchased by the middle class… with the subsidies paid for by taxes paid by the working class…!

But hey… ‘green’… !

In the US, govt tax credits for EVs are used heavily in advertising. However, those able to actually buy a decent EV won't get the credit because they make too much money or they want one that costs more than $55k. Sure, less well off people with good credit can get and inexpensive one with a long-term loan, but then interest more than eats up the savings.

More insidious in the US is that gasoline is actually very cheap but when you add Federal, State, County, Local taxes it becomes expensive not to mention the highway taxes paid to get it to the pump and the taxes paid by the producers and providers. EVs take away all that govt income and eventually, the govt's thirst will be filled from somewhere else. In many parts of the world, the taxes are much higher and the issue is even worse.

Credits for new clean vehicles purchased in 2023 or after | Internal Revenue Service

You may qualify for a clean vehicle tax credit up to $7,500 if you buy a new, qualified plug-in electric vehicle or fuel cell electric vehicle.

www.irs.gov

ashman · Jul 10, 2024

baz said:
Batteries don't last too long, and I believe there are some very cheap older EVs on the market
I wouldn't know because I haven't looked
Think yourself lucky you don't live in greater London Ash
Your defender would cost you £12.50 or $20 aus per day every time you drove it plus £600 or $1140.00 per year for road tax
And it's getting worse with 20 mph limits springing up everywhere

Don't worry Baz as it's starting to get like that here in Aus and my state of Queensland has the highest fees for registration fees and road tax in Australia and if you buy a new car or bike even a second hand car or bike there are stamp duties of $2 for every $100 you pay for the car to get the registration in your name as well we have the highest fines for traffic infringements in Australia and our suburban speed limits are 60kmph if sign posted if not it's 50 kmph and the goody too shoes want it even lower, for pedestrian safety, what a load of B S, some place it down to 40 kmph, you only have to be 1kmph over the speed limit to get a fine.
If the greens get their way we be all riding push bike (bicycles).
Prices for new EV cars are way too high here, but the last 2 years Australia has been inundated with big American juice gosling SUV trucks with their big V8 fuel eating engines W T F is going on here and yet the GOV let them into the country and on the other hand they want everyone to buy new EVs to save the planet.
As I have said earlier EVs look good and it seems to be the way things are going but there are hidden cost as well how long the batteries do last, what cost to replace them and the older they get the less distant they will go etc etc, these are questions that no one seems to really know, everything new does get old and don't say anything about EVs catching fire.

Lineslinger · Jul 10, 2024

Buy an EV and drive it off the showroom floor....50% loss of value. Try reselling an EV...no one is buying. Wind turbines and EV's have a huge and hidden waste problem, most of the mechanism cannot be recycled.

I am for clean energy as much as any Greenie out there. But, the technology cannot be developed, implemented, and finally misrepresented according to any one nations political election cycle...see USA.
The EV has its place, but not as a mainstream mode of transport...check the status of the power grid in your country.

Natural Gas, Nuclear, Fusion.
Nuke and Fusion put out more energy than they consume. Batteries do not. Where does the source of energy for all those free chargers for your car come from? Hydroelectric, coal...and nuclear.

Nuclear and Fusion development/technology is growing exponentially. The US military has a nuclear generator that fits in the back of a box truck. These well established sources could be a lot more prominent were their continued development not being dictated by politicians.
Recycled nuclear waste and its byproducts are a recently introduced alternative power source with almost unlimited offerings.

Natural gas has a byproduct of water vapor. The politicians in the US has made it prohibitive to further harvest NG with their so-called
Green (more votes) agenda, thus suppressing its long term development.
What could be greener than harvesting an already existing fuel source that when consumed produces zero carbon emission...it sure as hell is not the electric battery...look up Lithium mining and disposal.

EV's were a knee jerk response to a politically created issue designed to harvest more votes.
How do you think Elon Musk became a multi-billionaire? Do you think US taxpayer subsidies across the board for the purchase of his EV's to "save the planet" had anything to do with it?

This information is valid and well established.
You just have to look at the man behind the curtain and listen to him, exactly what the power brokers do not want you doing.

marshg246 · Jul 10, 2024

Lineslinger said:
Buy an EV and drive it off the showroom floor....50% loss of value. Try reselling an EV...no one is buying. Wind turbines and EV's have a huge and hidden waste problem, most of the mechanism cannot be recycled.

I am for clean energy as much as any Greenie out there. But, the technology cannot be developed, implemented, and finally misrepresented according to any one nations political election cycle...see USA.
The EV has its place, but not as a mainstream mode of transport...check the status of the power grid in your country.

Natural Gas, Nuclear, Fusion.
Nuke and Fusion put out more energy than they consume. Batteries do not. Where does the source of energy for all those free chargers for your car come from? Hydroelectric, coal...and nuclear.

Nuclear and Fusion development/technology is growing exponentially. The US military has a nuclear generator that fits in the back of a box truck. These well established sources could be a lot more prominent were their continued development not being dictated by politicians.
Recycled nuclear waste and its byproducts are a recently introduced alternative power source with almost unlimited offerings.

Natural gas has a byproduct of water vapor. The politicians in the US has made it prohibitive to further harvest NG with their so-called
Green (more votes) agenda, thus suppressing its long term development.
What could be greener than harvesting an already existing fuel source that when consumed produces zero carbon emission...it sure as hell is not the electric battery...look up Lithium mining and disposal.

EV's were a knee jerk response to a politically created issue designed to harvest more votes.
How do you think Elon Musk became a multi-billionaire? Do you think US taxpayer subsidies across the board for the purchase of his EV's to "save the planet" had anything to do with it?

This information is valid and well established.
You just have to look at the man behind the curtain and listen to him, exactly what the power brokers do not want you doing.

I agree with almost all you say. NG (actually CNG) should have been switched to long ago. T. Boone Pickins produced a study long ago that shows that the US store of NG could provide the US power needs for 500 years. Even if he was way wrong, at least 100 years. Only minor changes are needed to use it in cars and it could easily replace coal and oil fired power plants. the old Metro buses ran on diesel, the newer on CNG - way nicer to be behind a CNG powered one.

The current govt is trying to ban NG from new home construction!

The twin Voyager spacecrafts are nuclear powered and were launched in the 70s. Not saying that cars should have plutonium of their power sources but clearly there is some capability in that area.

Fusion is the dream - people are too scared. Almost all nuclear waste could be used by breeder reactors, but again, people are too scared.

At least the car manufacturers understood to stay away from hydrogen - It is about the perfect fuel but takes more energy to produce than it provides!

Grandad · Jul 10, 2024

In UK the wind generators are often switched off even when there is plenty of wind ! - lots of reasons I guess but one is a lack of storage .... I don't see why the energy not being utilised when the generators are switched off couldn't be used to generate hydrogen gas ..... same with nuclear during the " quiet times " when demand isn't there. Naive maybe ??? but gotta be some virtue somewhere ?

texasSlick · Jul 10, 2024

I read recently, that wind speeds are in decline.

Surprise! When wind turbines are sucking energy out of the wind, who would be surprised that the wind contains less energy thereafter?

First Law of Thermodynamics: ...................you cant get something for nothing
Second Law of Thermodynamics ............. you cant even break even

Slick

Fast Eddie · Jul 10, 2024

Grandad said:
In UK the wind generators are often switched off even when there is plenty of wind ! - lots of reasons I guess but one is a lack of storage .... I don't see why the energy not being utilised when the generators are switched off couldn't be used to generate hydrogen gas ..... same with nuclear during the " quiet times " when demand isn't there. Naive maybe ??? but gotta be some virtue somewhere ?

Yes.

They get switched off when:
1) the wind is to high, this will damaged the structure and generator.
2) the wind is too low, the windmill is ‘wearing out’ without generating anything.
3) the power is not needed.

Sadly, these 3 take a very large chunk out of the total ‘availability’ and that’s before we talk about reliability and maintainability (MTBF and MTTR).

Your point about nuclear is also valid, it’s a very clean source of ‘steady state’ generation, but it cannot cope with fluctuation in demand.

marshg246 · Jul 10, 2024

Grandad said:
In UK the wind generators are often switched off even when there is plenty of wind ! - lots of reasons I guess but one is a lack of storage .... I don't see why the energy not being utilised when the generators are switched off couldn't be used to generate hydrogen gas ..... same with nuclear during the " quiet times " when demand isn't there. Naive maybe ??? but gotta be some virtue somewhere ?

Storage is a major issue for many power generator. Lots of times that gets back to govt. rules and special interests lobbying. In Virginia, you can have solar electric installed that essentially costs nothing over time. However, legally, you cannot store it. So, during a sunny day you might not use grid power and your meter might even backwards but with proper storage you would not need an electric company much of the time and they know that and push the govt to say that storage is too dangerous to allow.

From my reading, current US Green Hydrogen production is usually done in off hours. However, the Govt goal that would make hydrogen cost practical for general public use won't be achieved until at least 2030. My guess is that it won't be burnt but will be used in fuel cells powering electric cars.

Richard Tool · Jul 10, 2024

Not so sure I should repeat something I have not researched myself but for consideration as a possibility I’ll mention it. Anyone who has information to the contrary please say so - I am happy to stand corrected. I have heard that during their lifetime offshore wind turbines consume a tremendous amount of fossil fuel-some claim even more than they save . Their manufacture , transportation , erecting , and servicing / repairs all require fossil fuel consumption.
Food for thought.

EV drawbacks

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